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Sony Xperia devices with Sailfish OS

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AVR4000
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 13.Sep.2017 10:41    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
[...]

Quite possibly so. And if some smarter ones happened to be there too, they quickly got rid of them, of which Marc Dillon's case is a good example. He must have had enough of their stupid decisions if he just left.


It feels like they are following the same idea as with Maemo - i.e. treating it as a "niche" and a fun "hobby" like Nokia did with their Internet Tablets instead of pushing them heavy and promoting them (I think it became pretty evident when the N810 and E90 arrived - for all intents and purposes the logical thing there would have been to make a Maemo Communicator).

There are way too many similarities between the way Jolla is being run and the way Nokia treated their platforms, especially Maemo.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 14.Sep.2017 04:13    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:
There are way too many similarities between the way Jolla is being run and the way Nokia treated their platforms


Isn't Jolla now actually OWNED by Grigory Berezkin / ESN Group from Russia and a number of other Russian investors? Berezkin is said to be the majority shareholder. That's what I've read from multiple news sources. Has anyone checked lately how many members of the Board at Jolla are Russians? I could find at least four: Pavel Eyges, Boris Krasnovsky, Irina Esipenko, Grigory Berezkin, but this list doesn't have to be complete as there is no official and up-to-date list given anywhere.

I'm afraid that those from Nokia (and Finns in general) are now a minority with little or no control over what this business is now aimed at.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 14.Sep.2017 14:01    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
[...]


Isn't Jolla now actually OWNED by Grigory Berezkin / ESN Group from Russia and a number of other Russian investors? Berezkin is said to be the majority shareholder. That's what I've read from multiple news sources. Has anyone checked lately how many members of the Board at Jolla are Russians? I could find at least four: Pavel Eyges, Boris Krasnovsky, Irina Esipenko, Grigory Berezkin, but this list doesn't have to be complete as there is no official and up-to-date list given anywhere.

I'm afraid that those from Nokia (and Finns in general) are now a minority with little or no control over what this business is now aimed at.


The question here is when they are going to treat the platform seriously?

If there is a serious idea about pushing it for the Russian market - the commercial app situation AND proper OEM backing MUST be sorted because one thing is for sure: It can't succeed under current circumstances.

So if Jolla is now controlled by Russian investors etc - it make absolutely no sense to continue like they do.

It feels like perhaps the ownership are changing but the management has a Modus Operandi that is very.... Nokia and SF receive as "good" support as Maemo did back in the days.

What I mean with Chinese/Russian ownership are proper support, a strong push to put SF devices on the market paired with a strong independent eco system. Building "independence by avoiding US systems" on Android 4.2.2 apps doesn't make any sense.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 14.Sep.2017 19:34    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

The question here is when they are going to treat the platform seriously?

The ownership does matter, too. The Russians clearly aim at making it their national OS of choice, both for end users and for government use. The Inoi R7 has just been officially presented to Russian Prime Minister. Nothing wrong with that, with the following exception:

If the company is now indeed Russian-owned and controlled, then it will probably affect the way the OS willl be further developed. It may no longer be an independent OS with just a Russian fork, but from now on it may be - at its core - an OS tailored first of all for the Russian gov't needs, with just an "international" fork (not necessarily entirely free from Russian "security solutions").

It looks that the Russians have been investing in Jolla for at least several years, and it may have a lot to do with Jolla's refusal to support native development. The Russians may have wanted to control it themselves. Regular end users might have been needed only to temporarily sponsor the company and beta-test the OS until it is ready for the Russian market. It might explain why the OS has never been promoted or properly supported when it comes to end users and why development of native apps has always been so apparently ignored, which doesn't make sense for any normal company and product aimed at general market.

PS. I don't like it that there is no clear official information about the current ownership structure of Jolla. I'd expect more transparency from a public company.
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PostPosted: Friday, 15.Sep.2017 15:19    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I still don't get the way it is "developed" - if SF is the new "National OS" I would expect proper support since Russia typically invest and promote their products when they want them to succeed. Three recent examples of this are the Sukhoi SuperJet 100, Irkut MC-21 and the Aviadvigatel PD-14.

Jolla is more like the Jeltsin era when products didn't develop properly (due to a serious lack of investment). Typical examples of this is the looong time it took to get the Tupolev Tu-204 certified and also the lack of investments in Aviadvigatel PS-90A development (thus causing Aeroflot to scream loudly over 32 un-scheduled engine replacements during the first year of Ilyushin Il-96-300 operation).

All of this are history now, though AND projects are back in track - with one exception: The "National OS".

If Sailfish is the "National OS" I would expect the following to happen:

1. The creation of a Russian SF app store for native commercial apps aimed at the Russian market.
2. Incentives for Russian companies (and those doing business in the Russian market) to distribute apps in said store.
3. Incentives for Android OEMs to make "Sailfish Editions" for the Russian market AND to get their own brands (Yota etc) to release such products (a YotaPhone with SF is an example).
4. The development of a "Russian Google like ecosystem" for Sailfish.
5. Cooperation with China about SF - including the possibility to create a Sino-Russian joint venture for its development.

So if Jolla Sailfish is the "National OS" I must say that I just don't get the way it is being "developed". It makes no sense - especially when Russia are treating other "national" projects seriously and even create new industrial conglomerates (such as United Aircraft Corporation) for them.

It is hard to believe that there's a "Russian" resistance against commercial apps in their "National OS". It just doesn't make any sense. I can understand a resistance against using the Harbor Store as a base and a preference for having a Russian store but that's a different thing.

One thing is very evident: A "National OS" aimed at "avoiding US interference" that lack native apps and rely on Android dittos (i.e. US interference) is such a stupidity that it is beyond description and I can't even see how it could be a "Russian" policy. Not in the era of Import Substitution when they replace US products with domestic ones (and the latter doesn't mean "with US components" - it means 100% made in Russia).

So if Sailfish is the "National OS" of Russia I must say that it is the worst managed project since the Jeltsin era. Things like that happened at that time due to a lack of proper investments (and a blind theory that Western products is the best thing since sliced bread so eliminating the domestic industry and just use imported stuff is way better) but it's 2017...

It is hard to believe in the idea of rolling out SF for the government (i.e. where the main reason is to avoid US technology) by... relying on US technology (Android apps) AND risk that users are sideloading Google Play Services... It is even dumber than even the dumbest decisions of Nokia!

Considering that the Import Substitution program (for other industries) are based on completely different principles I just don't get what they are doing here.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me about what Jolla is trying to do - even if they would be a "development house" with just one task - "develop the system" the lack of native apps just can't be explained and it is totally incomprehensible if we push the "National OS" theory.

My impression is a company operated by "idealists" that "don't like commercialism" and consider "native apps" to be useless, people can run Android 4.2.2 apps instead...

If Russia want a "National OS" I dare to say that they better go and get Mer or something and develop their own system with proper promotion and support for commercial native apps (i.e. avoiding US technologies altogether).

Jolla is the most strange, abnormal "OS developer" since ever - I can't remember any other platform that fully relies on apps for a competing system. It is unique and absolutely stunning.
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PostPosted: Friday, 15.Sep.2017 18:48    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

All of this may happen soon. The INOI R7 has only been presented so it's just the beginning on that market. We'll see. Note that there is a plan of the Russian government to gradually replace foreign mobile OSes with "their national OS" - they aim at reducing the Android and iOS marketshare to 75% by 2020 and to 50% by 2025 or so. Which means that "their OS" will probably be somehow enforced by the state on their market. It is already known that a huge software center has been created in Innopolis / Tatarstan and many Russian developers were hired to work there on software for "their OS". Quite possibly they already develop software for the gov't sector and state services. I've read recently that the software will be FSB-tested and certified.

Anyway, Sailfish OS was meant to be an entirely open and transparent alternative to closed American OSes which possibly include surveillance technologies of American security services. But now that its goal is to become a national OS in Russia (which itself is nothing wrong) but at the same time the company seems to be actually owned and controlled by some Russian big fish, I'm not sure if it'll retain its transparency and openness. The way you can't even find official information about their ownership structure doesn't look good, either.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 19.Sep.2017 13:22    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I think it is possible to argue it with some mixed feelings since it would be nice with an "entirely open transparent" system but I think such a system has to develop separately, by a company that have a clue.

One thing is for sure: I am not sure whether it is "better" or "worse" to have a FSB certified system vs a CIA/NSA certified. Ugly fishes are everywhere... Having a Sino-Russian (since I have a strong feeling that if Sailfish become the National OS of Russia; it will become something similar in China as well) would make it a viable "third player". It is not as good as if it was "fully transparent" but such a system would rather require a "fourth player". Perhaps something Maemo based.

The idea of "Cellular PCs" would open new possibilities - if focus are switched from "mobile" to "computer" for those segments I think both Amiga OS and Linux could be such a "fourth player" - i.e. ARM optimized, desktop style UI with small screen optimization (think Hildon/Series 90 or Series 80) with full compatibility with Android hardware. With Project Treble incoming it feels like the step of replacing Android on a regular Snapdragon device with a different OS that is compatible with the low level divers etc start to approach us.

A Linux distro for ARM similar to Maemo (i.e. Debian or Ubuntu with specific UI optimizations through a typical window manager) would be the best solution, ready to flash (or ship) with perfectly standard "Android" devices and PCBs.

I would also say that Jolla/Sailfish will become a strong player as a National OS since it will mean proper backing and the creation of a strong market. I would even say that considering that "typical" success is based on marketing and propaganda rather than fact and quality, it feels like this government backing is good, indeed.

One of the side-effects of having a heavily backed Sailfish as a National OS is that it would create a strong library of Qt apps and also demonstrate that it isn't a "natural duopoly" anymore, considering that the Western world is now filled with propaganda along the lines of "no one can compete with Apple and Google...". The new National OS would break that argument down and demonstrate that, yes - it is perfectly possible to compete. It would also open up the market for a potential fourth player (or perhaps the third player in the West).

I.e. a future division would be China/Russia: Android, iOS, Sailfish/National OS and Western world: Android, iOS, Linux based OS.

Since there are projects such as the Neo900 (an updated N900) and Maemo.org is still up and running I am pretty confident that things will happen relatively "soon". I.e. the so called "reign of Android" will be broken and two new players are arriving, one Maemo like for the Western markets and Sailfish for the Sino-Russian market (another option is that Jolla serve the Western market as well but that is just an open question in the National OS scenario).

I have no issues with using Russian software so if SF become a "National OS" and high quality apps are available for it (such as the good old SPB suite of the WM days) paired with either flashable images for different Android devices (or SF edition devices) I would be happy to give it a go (i.e. I wouldn't avoid it just because "it's Russian" like I feel that some people would do).

So this National OS/SF project would bring a lot of benefits for the opening of the market (i.e. the emergence of such a player would demonstrate that the current Android/iOS duopoly can be broken and thus kill off all those silly arguments about it being "impossible to launch a new system").
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 20.Sep.2017 09:11    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I am not sure whether it is "better" or "worse" to have a FSB certified system vs a CIA/NSA certified

I guess it strongly depends on where you live. If you have them all along your eastern border, several missiles being pointed permanently at your capital city, the biggest military exercises in their history in progress right as I'm writing this a few kilometers away from your border (with most trainings being about how to invade you) and a historical record of numerous military conflicts then I guess that you very much prefer to be spied by NSA from a countly located some 6000 km away and with no conflicts of any kind in the past and no interest in such a conflict at present or in any foreseeable future. NSA/CIA surely DO surveil me via American OSes, but at least they aren't a physical threat to me. Unlike the other ones. So I'd say that while for people from countries located far away from the Big Brother it may be hard to comprehend, all the Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Slovaks, Poles, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Moldavians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Georgians, etc. (and quite possibly also Japanese - as the status of Kuril islands is still unresolved - and some other Asian countries like e.g. South Korea) probably know very well what I mean. Those in Asia located close to China won't be overly happy with any kind of surveillance by any China-controlled OS, either, and - believe me - they will prefer to be surveilled by NSA if that's the only alternative they can have.
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PostPosted: Monday, 25.Sep.2017 18:14    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

After having owned Sony Xperia XA(not X) for 20 days, running it with the official android 7.0 update, I have to say it overall is much better than the first Jolla phone with all updates. SailfishOS has better overall multitasking and gestures though. Getting root on jolla through developer mode also feels a lot safer than rooting an android phone(I haven't done it yet), as some android apps supposedly stop working if they detect it is rooted. On the other hand Sony Xperia XA has better builtin email app, and not surprisingly much better android app support.

While Sony Xperia X is a different phone than XA, I assume Xperia X with android basically is the same as mine, with a better CPU and more RAM. Assuming sailfishOS was available for XA I still wouldn't replace android with sailfishOS. The lack of AOSP for XA indicate that it probably never will get sailfishOS either. The moment Jolla starts making me believe in SailfishOS again, I would gladly buy another device for it, but so far they have not given me any reason to believe sailfishOS will be good enough.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 26.Sep.2017 15:40    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Jolla opened the Sony Xperia X device program for keen developers now.

https://blog.jolla.com/xperiax-open-source-hw-adaptation/

As my Jolla 1 broke down a week ago I'm just considering to get me an Xperia X Compact and give it a try...

I only hope my knowledge in flashing is enough to do it (I reflashed my N9 with open mode and the available SFOS 1 image but there are tutorials out there that help you through this). Don't know if this adaption would be another story. Have to sleep about it Wink
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