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No navigation - N900 is dead for me for the time being

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geozec
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 10.Nov.2009 19:08    Post subject: No navigation - N900 is dead for me for the time being   Reply with quote   

I think that this issue is so important that it warrants a new thread.
I have been a huge N900 fan from the beginning and was sure to get one as soon as it becomes available.
Now that shipments begin I've learned that it will ship without voice navigation and it's not sure if and when it will be added.
I mean- what on earth were they thinking? Making such an awesome device, invest such a great deal of R&D, buliding up a hype and then it doesn't get what even my 1.5 year old N78 has.
I know that there may be other programs down the line but this could last a year, who knows? How long did it take for the iPhone?
As long as it doesn't have voice guided navigation I will not consider it. The Moto Milestone suddenly looks very interesting again (which it was all along but I was still hooked on the N900). Even if it doesn't come with free navigation in Europe it at least does give you the option right from the start. (Free vocie navigation was THE big surprise when the Droid/Milestone was anounced)
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geozec
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 10.Nov.2009 22:45    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

100 hits and no reply...seems I am the only one bothered by this.
Honestly, I'd have thought that this is a problem for at least 50% of potential buyers and a deal breaker for at least 20-30%. But maybe not.
GPS has always been the major killer app that I have been waiting for since 2004 and finally in 2007 it came in the 6110Navigator. I would never downgrade in that respect.
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substance
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 00:53    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

n900 does have turn by turn gps navigation but its not voice guided yet. i dont know if its going be shipped with the latest firmware with voice guide added but it will be added at some point in near future. there possibly will be some 3rd navigation sw available soon as well. im not too much concerned in this.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 07:48    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

100 hits and no reply...

Well, what answer do you expect?

I can only repeat that even on the old proto I have I could find some audio files for voice guided navigation (a lady saying "turn left" etc.), which is the best sign that it is going to be made available. It seems that they didn't manage to finish the Maps application in time (it wasn't available on previous Tablets and it couldn't be just "copied" from Symbian as the N900 is Linux based so the app had to be created from scratch) and they apparently did not want to delay launching the entire device just because of voice navigation. Would you prefer them to shift the release date to December so that the phone can come with the voice navigation? I prefer getting it now without it and adding it via a firmware update in a month or so...
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geozec
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 08:34    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
[...]
Well, what answer do you expect?


That more pople care enough to say something.

Michal Jerz wrote:
[...]
Would you prefer them to shift the release date to December so that the phone can come with the voice navigation? I prefer getting it now without it and adding it via a firmware update in a month or so...


I'd prefer some certainty. If it comes in a month it'll be ok but it could be 6 months or a year, right?
For the iPhone, which is certainly much mire interesting to companies like tomtom than the N900, it took over a year.
And as for the community- I know that they are very active but as a layman I'd suspect that voice guided navigation is a huge project that can't be expected to be delivered by the community (maybe I'm wrong).
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 10:55    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I believe that Google's navigation does not work offline. In remote locations, that would be a huge problem for me.

What about the N900's navigation - does it also require that you are online?
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geozec
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 12:48    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Hintry wrote:
I believe that Google's navigation does not work offline. In remote locations, that would be a huge problem for me.

What about the N900's navigation - does it also require that you are online?


As of now, yes, but there could be a future version of the map loader software which works with the N900.
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jcompagner
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 14:17    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

geozec wrote:
Hintry wrote:
I believe that Google's navigation does not work offline. In remote locations, that would be a huge problem for me.

What about the N900's navigation - does it also require that you are online?


As of now, yes, but there could be a future version of the map loader software which works with the N900.


But if you load tha maps in by going to them, does it cahce it (for ever if space is there?)

Because thats what i do know with maps if i quickly want a piece like NY City. I think google maps also doesnt that and i agree with hintry thats is a problem, i use maps the most when i am not in my home country, so google maps would be really expensive! Thats why i like nokia/ovi maps
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 15:38    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Does anyone know if there is a Wayfinder7 available that works with N900. AFAIK it is built in in the previous tablets... I have a lifetime license for version 7 which means that as long as I use a compatible device there is no time based fee.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 17:24    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

i couldn't care less to be honest, i've got a map in the car
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 17:27    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I thought the same thing, but sometimes I'm in a different car or traveling with others. It's useful to always have a GPS on hand.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 11.Nov.2009 17:55    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

That more pople care enough to say something.

But isn't it that they can say that "something" only after they KNOW something about it? No one has a final N900 and no one can verify whether it has voice navigation or not. Or even if it hasn't, no one knows if it is going to be added (e.g. in a month or so, via a firmware update) or not.

So what can we say at this time?

If it turns out that the N900 is not going to have voice navigation out of the box, believe me, I'll be the first to complain about it and I will list it as one of the most serious drawbacks in the final review of the N900 I'll publish when I finally get a final unit.

But before that, I just want to MAKE SURE that it is not there, or that it is not going to be added via a firmware update in a matter of weeks.

Quote:

I'd prefer some certainty. If it comes in a month it'll be ok but it could be 6 months or a year, right?

SURE. And I can only agree that lack of proper information flow between Nokia and the community only makes things worse and actually works AGAINST Nokia and NEGATIVELY AFFECTS popularity of their products.

But what can I do if Nokia stubbornly ignores this website and tens of thousands of visitors browsing it daily...? If there only was a reasonable person I could contact and request (and OBTAIN) information about their plans regarding the navigation on the N900, I'd do it instantly and HAPPILY announce it here.

But I just can't understand why they're not interested in me quickly updating my N900 preview with the most recent information based on a final unit. It got 350.000 page impressions so far, and still gets 1000-2000 a day and all these people get outdated information based on a 3 months old prototype. If I was Nokia, I would provide sites like My-Symbian or Mobile-Review with the most recent units as fast as possible, knowing that just these two reviews get hundreds of thousands of hits. But they clearly prefer making promotional videos where a guy turns into a robot and then to N900 instead of taking care of REAL sources of information so many people read. What can I say. It's just INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

Quote:
For the iPhone, which is certainly much mire interesting to companies like tomtom than the N900, it took over a year.

Well, it actually took TWO years for voice navigation to come to the iPhone. But it has little to do with the iPhone being "much more interesting" to companies like TomTom. It took so long only because Apple was FORBIDDING 3rd party GPS navigation software to be written and released for the iPhone until only recently. If it wasn't forbidden, TomTom would have been available for the iPhone already in 2007 or so.

Nokia does not forbid to create 3rd party navigation software for Maemo, so we may see it much sooner than that.

Quote:

And as for the community- I know that they are very active but as a layman I'd suspect that voice guided navigation is a huge project that can't be expected to be delivered by the community (maybe I'm wrong).

I never said that it is the community who's supposed to add navigation. Maps is Nokia's application (and it isn't open source so no one else has access to it) so it is only Nokia who can work on it.

But on the other hand, I wouldn't say that adding voice navigation to N900 is as a "huge project" as you're saying. Nokia DOES have full voice navigation on Ovi Maps for Symbian, so it is basically only a matter of PORTING that part of the code to Maemo. There's nothing new to invent from scratch, it only takes porting the EXISTING solution of which Nokia's software engineers are AUTHORS.

Quote:

What about the N900's navigation - does it also require that you are online?

Just like on Symbian, Ovi Maps on the N900 will let you download the whole map of selected country (or of all countries worldwide if you only wish to sacrifice that much space) and use it fully offline. But I'm not sure if they managed to release N900 compatible version of Map Loader yet. Last time I tried (two months or so ago) the Map Loader was recognizing the N900 but couldn't find the right folder on it.

Quote:

As of now, yes, but there could be a future version of the map loader software which works with the N900.

Actually, as the maps and the folder structure are the same, even before they release N900 compatible Map Loader you can basically copy the maps from e.g. a Symbian phone and use them offline.

Quote:

But if you load tha maps in by going to them, does it cahce it (for ever if space is there?)

Yes, it does cache the maps.
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geozec
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PostPosted: Thursday, 12.Nov.2009 00:44    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:

But isn't it that they can say that "something" only after they KNOW something about it?


Of course you are right. I thought this was known by now. I didn't start this thread on a hunch but on a definite statement from a Nokia Austira representative.

Michal Jerz wrote:

Or even if it hasn't, no one knows if it is going to be added (e.g. in a month or so, via a firmware update) or not.


Which is my problem- I won't comit to a new platform, sell my old phone and shell out 500 or 600€ if I only HOPE for it to be included.

Michal Jerz wrote:

Well, it actually took TWO years for voice navigation to come to the iPhone. But it has little to do with the iPhone being "much more interesting" to companies like TomTom. It took so long only because Apple was FORBIDDING 3rd party GPS navigation software to be written and released for the iPhone until only recently. If it wasn't forbidden, TomTom would have been available for the iPhone already in 2007 or so.

Oh, that I dind't know. Interesting.

Michal Jerz wrote:

I never said that it is the community who's supposed to add navigation. Maps is Nokia's application (and it isn't open source so no one else has access to it) so it is only Nokia who can work on it.


I just meant that if Nokia won't do it someone could say that the community could provide it and while it may not be a huge project for Nokia it certainly would be for the community.
And if the N900 remains the only Maemo5 phone for some time I don't see Tomtom and Co scrambling to develop a version of their software for this particualr OS.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Thursday, 12.Nov.2009 01:17    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Which is my problem- I won't comit to a new platform, sell my old phone and shell out 500 or 600€ if I only HOPE for it to be included.

Of course, you are right. Well, as I wrote, unfortunately I will not be able to help as information flow between me and Nokia is as hopeless as between them and the rest of the world.

I'll try to ask some guys at Nokia Poland about it (who, unlike Nokia UK or Finland, really do their best to help, but unfortunately their possibilities are limited as Poland usually get phones later than other countries, e.g. the N900 will only come in December) - maybe they'll know something about navigation. If I get any information, I'll post it here right away.

Quote:

Oh, that I dind't know. Interesting.

Yes, developing 3rd party GPS navigation software was OFFICIALLY FORBIDDEN as part of the iPhone SDK EULA (End User Licence Agreement). It changed only recently. TomTom and other companies had GPS apps for the iPhone ready and working already in 2007 but they weren't allowed to release them until mid 2009 or so.

Quote:

And if the N900 remains the only Maemo5 phone for some time I don't see Tomtom and Co scrambling to develop a version of their software for this particualr OS.

Well, the iPhone was the only OS X phone over a year or so. Then the iPhone 3G, which REPLACED the first iPhone, was also the only OS X phone over another year or so. And so on. So I don't think that being the only device does matter to anyone. They'll make their decision based on VOLUME OF SALES and not on whether it's just one model or not.

Besides, Maemo is not something I'd call "this particular OS". It's simply Linux, the same as you can find in millions of desktop computers worldwide. Even the Hildon user interface is actually just a window manager running in an X server. So for any company that's familiar with Linux and already has Linux compatible solutions, porting them to Maemo isn't something I'd consider a challenge. It's mostly a matter of modifying the UI for N900's screen resolution and layout as well as using a couple of APIs to handle the GPS receiver. Nothing special they wouldn't be able to do in a month or so.
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PostPosted: Friday, 13.Nov.2009 23:08    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

http://www.sygic.com/index.php/en/press-releases/press-news/225-sygics -turn-by-turn-navigation-compatible-with-new-nokia-maemo-phones.html
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