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The Jolla starts shipping on November 27

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Kleuter
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PostPosted: Monday, 16.Dec.2013 22:38    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

There are other people reporting that they got the phone while order status was still "In picking" but no one reported getting one with the order status still "Paid".


I received mine today, my status is still paid.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Monday, 16.Dec.2013 22:51    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I received mine today, my status is still paid.

That's interesting. At least based on the information from that spreadsheet you seem to be the first such person as no one else reported it so far.

... but if you're not the only one then it means that this whole thing is even more messy. I've already seen a report from one person whose phone was delivered to a.... neighbor. Luckily, he has honest neighbors, or else without shipment confirmation email and tracking ID he might never know that he was sent one. This is an EXCEPTIONALLY poor treatment of those few people who decided (or should I say risked) to support this platform with their hard earned money.

P.S. May I know what your order number was (at least roughly)?
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Kleuter
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PostPosted: Monday, 16.Dec.2013 23:19    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I've already seen a report from one person whose phone was delivered to a.... neighbor.

Overhere that is customary if there is nobody home, maybe the same in other countries.


Last edited by Kleuter on Saturday, 21.Dec.2013 11:38; edited 1 time in total
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Ketilk
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PostPosted: Monday, 16.Dec.2013 23:41    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I would never blame Jolla if the local shipping company delivered my unit to my neighbour or even someone living 4km away. That's something that happens from time to time with the Norwegian shipping company that delivered my t-shirt. It was the only shipping company that delivered to the address I had at that time. It was scheduled for paying VAT at delivery so I highly doubt they would have delivered it to someone else. If they had, the shipping company and/or the recipient would have been responsible as I had to sign at arrival.

I have no idea whether I will have to pay VAT or not for the phone at delivery. Jolla say it's included but I suspect the Norwegian customs offices disagrees. I look forward to hear what the Norwegian in the spreadsheet will say. Of course I would contact Jolla if a complaint to the shipping company or the customs office don't lead anywhere. I think it's better that I talk with the Norwegian customs office and Jolla talk with the Finnish customs office if both want VAT. The shipment should be marked with 240€ value + 60€ VAT or something like that as that was about what the web store said.

I will deal with it when I order later when my economical situation is under control.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 02:35    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I would never blame Jolla if the local shipping company delivered my unit to my neighbour or even someone living 4km away.

I obviously did not blame Jolla for an obvious fault of the shipping company (unless they printed the address on the package incorrectly).

But I wonder what has happened with the shipment confirmation emails with tracking IDs. Only 4 days ago Jolla sent an email to everyone apologizing the the delay and saying to "watch your email for your tracking number" and they already stopped sending them? What's next? Another email apologizing for no tracking IDs?

There's really TOO MUCH of all those issues. They make a fantastic operating system, they designed a beautiful device, but apparently THAT'S IT. Everything else (promotion, sales, developer support, customer care, etc.) is a mess.

Back to the tracking IDs, I really want to be able to track the package because I paid a lot of money (nearly a monthly salary in this country) for its contents. It is enough that they print on the package question marks instead of Polish characters (like it was with the preorder where my first name was Micha? and my street was R???ckiego -- there are at least three streets in my city matching that "pattern", eg. Rapackiego, Rozyckiego, Rybickiego) and the postman may handle my phone to a person living at a completely different street 15 km away from me and then I'll spend two weeks getting it back.

And please note that the shipment isn't free, we were charged 15€ for it, so we should get what's included in that price, i.e. the ability to track it.

----

Anyway, Kleuter, Casanunda, what are your first impressions? Is it worth the hassle?
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naytsyrhc
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 10:36    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

My order status is still "paid" too. I put my information in the mentioned spreadsheet now as well. As far as I can see, it's not worse for me than for all of us. I still hope that Jolla manages the delivery as promised but from the spreadsheet it doesn't look that good. However, the spreadsheet is not very reliable, as it is only an excerpt, i.e. something like 2%-5% of all the orders - assuming some 8000-10000 orders in total).

It looks like Finland orders are shipped earlier and the preorder option (0/40/100) and the date of preorder seem to have an effect (at least for Finland orders, assuming the information from order #4243 and #4800 are correct).

Anyway, as now people are cancelling orders already because they don't trust Jolla anymore (or whatever reason) should really wake up the managers at Jolla.

IMHO there are several possible explanations for this mess:
1st: they totally underestimated the work of processing 10.000 orders within the promised time
2nd: they had much much more orders than expected and more than we think of (maybe they have 100.000+ orders Wink ).
3rd: they have massive technical problems with the devices themselves or with production or something like that.
4th: they are incompetent.

1 and 4 are almost the same but anyway, maybe there are even other possible explanations. Jolla should communicate whatever reason there is in order to calm down the upset.
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Casanunda
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 14:33    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Anyway, Kleuter, Casanunda, what are your first impressions? Is it worth the hassle?


I really haven't had too much time yet to "play" with the phone, so of course I can just talk about first impressions.

I really like the swiping gestures UI concept and think it will be quite quick to learn and then use as a very efficient way of navigating.
so far, I'm still having some spots where I don't know exactly what to do to get the correct reaction from the phone, but I've only used it for about 1,5 hours so far.

I was surprised to see that in the browser, no swipe gesture works for going back one page, instead you have to scroll down a bit to make the navigation bar appear and then press the "back" button on the lower left of the screen (not nice to reach with right thumb one- handed)...

Apps- well, you know about the ridicoulous situation. There are about 30 apps in total in the Jolla store, and that is including the ones that are the essential apps from Jolla like mail client, clock and calculator.
and what's worse - I downloaded a stopwatch&timer app from Jolla store, and only AFTER downloading found out that it was an Android app and needed additional installation of the Android support.
VERY bad move. I can not even see any way to filter just native apps and NOT show me the Android apps at all. This I can't understand - they should have better left the Android apps for Yandex store or at least some seperate corner of Jolla store instead of mixing them with native apps.

Since I'm coming from N900 I miss my hardware keyboard - one of the reasons I could not convince myself to buy the N9. but that is obvious and nothing special for Jolla phone.

Now my negative comments are longer than the positive ones, but that does NOT correspond to my overall impression so far.

I think (hope) that I will enjoy this phone very much, knowing there still are glitches and missing features.
Maybe I will have some more time to try tonight, then I will report more.
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Casanunda
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 17:41    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Oh, I forgot about the hardware side:

I think the build quality is very good, the device feels very good in my hands.
weight, materials, shape are all fine for me.

The screen's "low" resolution is no issue to me - I can't identify any pixels on that screen, even getting really close with my eyes amd displaying some website with fine text.
Of course, my point of view is coming from N900, so somebody who has had a FullHD screen before might think differently here.

Can't say anything about battery life yet.
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spyder81
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 17:59    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Casanunda wrote
''Apps- well, you know about the ridicoulous situation. There are about 30 apps in total in the Jolla store, and that is including the ones that are the essential apps from Jolla like mail client, clock and calculator. ''

You've got to be kidding. 30 apps in the Jolla store? That's a very, very small amount of native applications. This could be different if Jolla provided developer units. Michal warned a couple of times for this situation. It's also not good that there is an Android app in the Jolla store. I don't think that this will help Jolla. They need to seperate the Jolla applications from the ones in the Yandex Store.

Michal, It would be awesome if you could release a full review of the phone when you have some good impressions.


Last edited by spyder81 on Wednesday, 18.Dec.2013 00:49; edited 1 time in total
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 19:28    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Hey naytsyrhc,

Quote:

However, the spreadsheet is not very reliable, as it is only an excerpt, i.e. something like 2%-5% of all the orders

Statistically, it should be quite representative. It's just several % of buyers, but quite randomly spread, from various countries, different order dates, etc. This way it's not less reliable than typical "public opinion polls".

Quote:

IMHO there are several possible explanations for this mess:
1st: they totally underestimated the work of processing 10.000 orders within the promised time
2nd: they had much much more orders than expected and more than we think of (maybe they have 100.000+ orders ).
3rd: they have massive technical problems with the devices themselves or with production or something like that.
4th: they are incompetent.

From what I've heard from various sources, Finnish orders are handled by DNA. A person ordering from Finland could choose whether to get it shipped or pick it up from a DNA store. If it is true, Jolla themselves would be packing only the 'international' orders...

It is unlikely that they have more orders than what results from the numbers. 1xxx orders clearly are from Finland and 2xxx from the rest of the world. Order numbers (in both ranges) only go from 1 to some 4800 / 4200 - no one ever reported any other number from outside of that range, and there have been no duplicate numbers reported by anyone. Therefore it is very unlikely that they have more orders than that unless everyone except those 4800 / 4200 keeps it secret....

Your 1st and 4th option.... it's hard to imagine how one could underestimate the work needed to wrap up and send some 4200 (or even 9000 with the Finnish ones) packages within 3 weeks. Normally it is a trivial job (and I don't think they need to flash them manually or else - as I wrote - who and when would have flashed those thousands of units available in DNA stores...), so maybe the 3rd option is true, i.e. a lot of faulty units from the factory and having to manually test every single unit. Maybe the ones which went to DNA stores were not manually checked (as the customer can just go back to the store and return/replace it) while those shipped internationally just have to be carefully tested or else sending broken units back for replacement would be a major problem for lots of people... But if quality is the issue then it's not good as even the units which pass the test prior to shipment may possibly break within a short period of time... I guess it would have very bad cosequences for Jolla's reputation if hundreds of phones broke within the first weeks of use...

Quote:

Apps- well, you know about the ridicoulous situation. There are about 30 apps in total in the Jolla store, and that is including the ones that are the essential apps from Jolla like mail client, clock and calculator.

So it looks that the number is actually 'artificially boosted' as normally apps like email client, clock or calculator would come preinstalled. If they need to be downloaded from the store then that's probably in order to have ANY native apps there....

Quote:

and what's worse - I downloaded a stopwatch&timer app from Jolla store, and only AFTER downloading found out that it was an Android app and needed additional installation of the Android support.

That's what I was afraid of - no clear distinguishment between Android and native apps, to make an impression that there are more of the native ones than there are.

Quote:

You've got be kidding. 30 apps in the Jolla store?

And half of them are the ones which on all other phones ship preinstalled Surprised

Quote:

It's also not good that there is an Android app in the Jolla store. I don't think that this will help Jolla. They need to seperate the Jolla applications from the ones in the Yandex Store.

They should be AT LEAST clearly separated/distinguished, with an easy to use function to filter by native/Android/both. I will really hate it if every second application I install turns out to be an Android one only after I install it.

Quote:

Michal, It would be awesome if you could release a full review of the phone when you have some good impressions.

Thank you, I will. But first I need to get the phone Wink
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Ketilk
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 17.Dec.2013 20:05    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

The gPodder application is not available in harbour store, but it is in an external repository. That is probably because it's coded in python with pyotherside and they don't accept those applications yet. I will follow the same approach, and I guess there are others that also do that.

There are lots of good libraries that's not permitted in store. I know it is nothing I want to make that I am able to do without using disallowed components. This FAQ describes what's allowed. Sure Jolla can make the rules for their application store, but if they don't accept sensible libraries then some of the best applications will only be available through external repositories. I think external repositories are easy, but it's not a concept most android users are familiar with. That might not apply at this point, but I guess it will in the future.

I think Jolla is afraid to break applications by upgrading their OS and that's why they don't accept them. Breaking applications is the price to pay for getting some types of applications. Marble is the best map application I know, although it haven't gotten a good UI for phones yet. It's not possible to port that without using disallowed libraries or rewrite it from scratch. Rewriting it to only use permitted libraries will take years for a team of multiple developers.

Quote:

Quote:

However, the spreadsheet is not very reliable, as it is only an excerpt, i.e. something like 2%-5% of all the orders


Statistically, it should be quite representative. It's just several % of buyers, but quite randomly spread, from various countries, different order dates, etc. This way it's not less reliable than typical "public opinion polls".

I beg to differ. Only Jolla can say whether it's random spread or not. Normal polls are weighted based on information that is significant compared to the results. We don't have the information we need to weight the results. If we had that we wouldn't need the spreadsheet in the first place.

These are people actively contributing information and not a random selection. If you ask "What is your favourite OS?" on Ubuntu's homepage you will get much more Ubuntu than e.g. Fedora. Much more than the real spread among linux users. I am sure the percentage of TMO-users in that spreadsheet is much higher than the percentage of Jolla customers being TMO-users. I believe Jollausers-readers has lots of users not on TMO and other way around. Both groups have been likely to preorder. I think there are also non-Finns that don't belong to either group who preordered the phone. How many compared to those two groups I can't say.

There are some things I think we can say from that spreadsheet, but the amount of customers per country is not one of them. Any thing that depends on the amount of customers per country too.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 18.Dec.2013 00:37    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

That is probably because it's coded in python with pyotherside and they don't accept those applications yet.

I think that they should seriously loosen all these Harbor restrictions. With such tight restrictions, they're further limiting the number of native applications in the store, which is counterproductive.

Quote:
Currently the following QML modules (imports) are allowed:
QtQuick 2.0
QtQuick 2.1
QtMultimedia 5.0
Sailfish.Silica 1.0
QtQuick.LocalStorage 2.0
QtQuick.XmlListModel 2.0
QtQuick.Particles 2.0
QtQuick.Window 2.0
QtWebKit 3.0

This does not include ANY of the important modules that ALL my applications (except for Biorhythms) use and cannot function without, e.g. Qt Location, Qt Positioning, Qt Sensors, etc.

It is not clear to me what do they actually mean by that "only the following IMPORTS are allowed", because even if I include a library in the rpm itself (rather than make it just a dependency), I still have to import it in the QML code to use it. So if they say that no other IMPORTS are allowed this sounds like if at this point I could not use e.g. Qt Location or Qt Positioning at all Shocked If so then NONE of my applications (except for Biorhythms) can be made available in the Jolla store, even after they allow paid software Shocked

Without allowing Qt Location, Qt Positioning and Qt Sensors there will not be ANY mapping/navigation/GPS apps in the store Shocked

Quote:

If you ask "What is your favourite OS?"

Of course all of those people are Sailfish OS enthusiasts. But that spreadsheet is not to show who likes which system but to show how Jolla ships their phones to different countries and to people who placed orders on different dates. It has nothing to do with one's preferences. It only has to do with people's order date and their location, and I believe that TMO visitors are quite randomly spread accross all countries and their order dates were also quite randomly spread.

Quote:

There are some things I think we can say from that spreadsheet, but the amount of customers per country is not one of them. Any thing that depends on the amount of customers per country too.

What we know, however, is that no one reported anywhere having an order number higher than around 4800 for Finland and some 4200 for the rest of the world. So it is safe to assume that either there were no orders with higher numbers, or at least there were VERY FEW of them. Also, I managed to place my order only THREE HOURS before the deadline (Dec 2nd midnight) and my order no. was around 4100, which perfectly matches the range and dates of order numbers in the spreadsheet. Apparently only a few people placed their orders after mine.
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Casanunda
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 18.Dec.2013 14:48    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

looks like the limited edition other halves are out of stock, see post on TMO:

RX-51 wrote:

Just received my Phone, was wondering to read just GSM and UMTS on the box as it is supposed to handle LTE (at a later point?!) too.


http://www.imgbox.de/show/img/6dRZWOHOnL.jpg


Also it seems they are out of the limited THO


http://www.imgbox.de/show/img/bgHppca8oG.jpg


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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 18.Dec.2013 17:24    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

looks like the limited edition other halves are out of stock

Now, that's interesting! Isn't it only those who pre-ordered with the 100 and 40 EUR option who get the limited edition THO? If so, their exact number has been known since summer Shocked
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Casanunda
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 18.Dec.2013 17:50    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

That's what I thought, too.
In fact, not even the 40€ preorders get a limited edition other half - just the T-shirt

Maybe they thought only a very small fraction of these pre-orderers would really order on the first two weeks.

But that's something I can hardly beleive - I would imagine that actually most of the people who were willing to pay 100€ up front more than half a year in advance will have saved the rest of the payment until now and will also want to get the phone as soon as possible...
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