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Developer program requested on together.jolla.com

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naytsyrhc
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PostPosted: Monday, 06.Jan.2014 10:09    Post subject: Developer program requested on together.jolla.com   Reply with quote   

Here you can find an issue/request addressing what Michal tries to tell us (or Jolla) for over a year now:

https://together.jolla.com/question/7029/idea-developer-experience-dev -device-programs-etc/

And this maybe is related to it:

https://together.jolla.com/question/680/co-creation-leading-to-co-deve lopment/

So, why not support those issues, maybe now they will get noticed Wink
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PostPosted: Monday, 06.Jan.2014 14:32    Post subject: Re: Developer program requested on together.jolla.com   Reply with quote   

naytsyrhc wrote:
Here you can find an issue/request addressing what Michal tries to tell us (or Jolla) for over a year now:

https://together.jolla.com/question/7029/idea-developer-experience-dev -device-programs-etc/

it just got my vote Smile
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Monday, 06.Jan.2014 18:42    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I voted, too.

Anyway, as I wrote, it's good to see that other people now come to exactly the same conclusions as what I've been talking about for over a year.

It's just that if my voice was heard earlier, the situation with native software at platform's launch might have looked completely different....

And still, it is a bitter feeling that when I was saying exactly the same things WHEN THERE WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO TAKE CARE ABOUT THEM I was generally considered a person BASHING Jolla, while now those who suddenly realized the very same after a year will be considered 'active and supporting community members with great ideas of how to push the platform forward" Cool
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PostPosted: Monday, 06.Jan.2014 21:50    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:

And still, it is a bitter feeling that when I was saying exactly the same things WHEN THERE WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO TAKE CARE ABOUT THEM I was generally considered a person BASHING Jolla, while now those who suddenly realized the very same after a year will be considered 'active and supporting community members with great ideas of how to push the platform forward" Cool


You can recognize a pioneer by the arrows in his back.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Monday, 06.Jan.2014 23:11    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

You can recognize a pioneer by the arrows in his back.

Well said Wink

Anyway, let's just hope that Jolla will listen to those voices. A good developer program is really needed - better late than never.

... that said, it's been around three weeks since I asked Jolla about their plans regarding support for the missing Qt profiles and paid software in the store and was told to expect an answer 'within days' Cool
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PostPosted: Monday, 06.Jan.2014 23:58    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

The second quoted post on together is actually opened by a leading Jolla employee (Carsten Munk).
So.Jolla people.are definitely watching that one...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 07.Jan.2014 02:22    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

The second quoted post on together is actually opened by a leading Jolla employee (Carsten Munk).

So.Jolla people.are definitely watching that one...

I really appreciate and admire their 'co-creation' approach. But it is a different thing than proper developer support. Co-creation is about further developing the system/platform together with the community, which is a *GREAT* and truly unique thing, but it has little (if anything) to do with stimulating development of native 3rd party software for the platform, about which literally nothing is being (and actually never was) done, or even just talked.

Undoubtedly, Jolla says and does A LOT to further develop and enhance the OS, and they really do care to do it the way people want it. Frequent updates, the together site, and more. But at the same time they do (and say) absolutely NOTHING about developer support. In the native 3rd party software development department their attitude hasn't changed at all. Support for paid software in the store has only been mentioned ONCE a few months ago (that it will come one day) and since then never talked about, the SDK only got one small update, the range of Qt modules accepted in the store (which is simply PITIFUL, preventing distribution of any advanced applications) hasn't changed even by a SINGLE new module since the Harbour was launched... and so on, and so forth. Like if perfecting the OS itself was their only goal, and the rest was of much less importance. And that including even The Other Half (something that was meant to be the KEY feature of the platform) which in its current form is actually just a gimmick (and in my case actually a broken one as my TOH is not recognized so it doesn't even change ambiances and only requires me to disable the daemon to prevent battery drainage) and nothing is going to change in any foreseeable future if they still don't even just reveal specifications of the I2C bus and the API to control it. Without it no one will make any TOH-based accessories for the platform. And if they keep delaying it - take my word - some other huge, wealthy and popular maker of (Android) smartphones will offer the same feature (just called differently) in a couple of months by launching a MULTITUDE of accessories at once for their Android phones, and no one will even remember that Jolla "invented" it.

It looks that they think they have plenty of time to master the OS while people will happily be using Android apps on the Jolla, but even that isn't true given how poor the Android compatibility currently is (compared to BB10 10.2.1 and very soon probably also Tizen). If it is about running Android apps then I very much prefer to do it on the Z10 where ACL is now nearly perfect (and additionally there are now also quite a lot of native Cascades apps). And developing for BB10 (despite the OS being totally closed) is actually much more relaxed than for the Jolla.
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naytsyrhc
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 07.Jan.2014 10:52    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal wrote:
... that said, it's been around three weeks since I asked Jolla about their plans regarding support for the missing Qt profiles and paid software in the store and was told to expect an answer 'within days' Cool


Again, now there is a question/request for that "new" on together.jolla.com by some "truly committed community member(s)" Wink
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 07.Jan.2014 21:15    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Again, now there is a question/request for that "new" on together.jolla.com by some "truly committed community member(s)"

Yes, and there's the usual answer that "these modules are not yet stable so we can't use them", and for Positioning that already is stable in 5.2 "we need to switch the Qt version we're using".

While I understand the reasons, it really frightens me how long it will take for all the necessary modules to be stable and supported. They can't even say how long it will take to switch to Qt 5.2 / QtPositioning 5.2 which is already stable and on which they already "work hard", let alone all the remaining highly important modules like QtLocation, QtSensors, etc.

Even if they manage to enable QtPositioning in a month or two, QtPositioning itself is only good for things like obtaining GPS location, but everything related to showing it on maps, geocoding or reverse geocoding, routing, etc. needs QtLocation.... which is not yet stable. Similarly, compass, orientation sensor, accelerometer, etc. to get direction/azimuth (or to get the angle at which the phone is held, needed for apps like e.g. StarFinder to locate stars in the sky) need QtSensors.... not yet stable. And many other modules.

So I won't be surprised if it will take A YEAR or so to add all these modules, without which in the Jolla store there will not be any applications requiring them, that including nearly ALL of my applications.

And if so, then I can only repeat what I said months ago, i.e. that switching from Qt4.8 to Qt5 (despite the latter being unquestionably more powerful) was a mistake. Blackberry decided to stay with Qt4.8 in BB10 (with some modules back-ported from Qt5) and look what a stable, complete and powerful system they got, with literally NOTHING missing. And for that (and for nearly perfect Android compatibility they now have) they apparently didn't need Qt5 or Wayland, yet graphic performance of BB10 is just excellent.

Jolla should have started with Qt4.8 (final, stable) and switch to Qt5 only in Sailfish OS 2.0 after Qt5 will have matured. Maybe it would require partial compatibility break at some point, but it'd be still better than launching a platform without so much of so important functionality and having it in such state for months. Many other platforms broke compatibility at some point (Symbian 8 -> 9 (S60 2nd Ed. -> 3rd Ed., UIQ 2 -> UIQ 3), WM -> WP etc.) and ground didn't shake. Android changes APIs every now and then, lots of applications require certain Android version and don't work on older versions, and people somehow live with it.

Anyway, it looks that all my applications (except for Biorhythms) will remain UNDISTRIBUTABLE for months, even if support for paid software is enabled. And the only choice I have is to either start creating for Sailfish OS simple apps not requiring any modules but the few enabled, or make apps for BB10 instead...


Last edited by Michal Jerz on Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 00:20; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 07.Jan.2014 22:00    Post subject: jolla   Reply with quote   

its very sad that your having probs, i was gonna buy jolla's phone but decided to go with the z10, i think Michael you should develope for bb10 and wait till jolla have sorted themselves out
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 01:00    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Now I'm starting to understand why Jolla has been advertising Android compatibility so much rather than native development: simply because due to lack of stable Qt5 APIs it is not possible to make advanced native applications, at least of 'producion quality'. The problem, however, is that Android compatibility isn't anywhere near such quality, either. And that's probably also because of Qt5 state (ACL cannot support what the underlying system doesn't provide). A closed circle.

It's not that I'm disappointed, angry or something. It's simply that the current state of things makes it IMPOSSIBLE to release any applications (other than Biorhythms, which I do not want to release as the first and for now the only application for Sailfish OS as I do not want to be considered an author of such simple/trivial apps only) and I simply cannot afford waiting many months doing nothing until the required APIs get stable and it becomes possible to use them. This way I am actually FORCED to start developing for some other platform, at least in the meantime. I'm afraid that many other developers will have to do the same, even just to keep getting any revenue. And no new developers will come before the platform allows normal development and distribution possibilities.

With Qt4.8 it would have looked completely different.

Quote:

decided to go with the z10

The Z10 (and the Z30) are great phones and BB10 is really mature. You won't be disappointed. BB10 looks better (and is smoother) than iOS, and the upcoming 10.2.1 release provides almost full Android 4.2.2 compatibility (including native code) with probably the only thing missing being Live Wallpapers. While the system itself is closed, you can develop for it in almost anything you wish: QtQuick (Symbian, Harmattan, Ubuntu components), Cascades, HTML5, Android, AIR, and more. I'm not sure if I need anything more than that...
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 09:27    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

But support in ACL does work for most of those components , doesn't it? I mean, I have some Android apps that use sensors like accelerometer or GPS, etc. All of that is not distributable as native app through harbour.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 10:00    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

But support in ACL does work for most of those components , doesn't it?

I'm not sure. If I try to send a file by Bluetooth from an Android app (e.g. Total Commander), I get "Unsuported function" message. A navigation application I tried to use cannot get GPS signal, and so on. At that point I stopped trying, so I don't really know if it applies to all apps or just to some, and what actually is the reason. Overall, the compatibility and functionality is considerably worse than on BB10 (the most annoying thing for me is that all Android apps run within a single Dalvik "instance", which not only makes it difficult to switch between them but also if you close the one in the foreground then all of them are gone - I keep forgetting about it all the time and closing what I wanted to keep running), so for now I simply prefer using Android apps on the Z10 where they work perfectly fine (on the leaked 10.2.1.xxx OS).

Anyway, finally some good news has just arrived. I got a message from Jolla that support for paid applications in the store is being worked on and the plan is to launch it during the spring. If by then they also manage to add at least QtPositioning, Location and Sensors (I didn't get any news about it) then this would enable me to publish my applications....
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 10:21    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Ok, I haven't tried everything (e.g. did not try Bluetooth). But I installed a game that uses Accelerometer as input method and it works fine. I installed several different applications that use GPS/Location services and they work fine (e.g. Navfree, Google Maps, MeMobility, to name a few).

I'm also a bit annoyed about some other missing functionality (e.g. no copy/paste support between Android apps and Sailfish native apps - allthough I don't know if it is just the missing paste support in Sailfish apps, as copy paste doesn't even work in all sailfish apps either).

It's also a bit sad, that only one instance of an android app can run in foreground and that all android apps share same sandbox, but on the other hand I like that and it clearly seperates Sailfish native apps from Android apps and so there is always a real advantage to get a native app instead of the android app. Maybe Jolla did it that way by intention, because this way you can clearly see, that you are running an android app and they have control over the launched apps in order to not let android apps forcing system to go down.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 11:43    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Jolla should have started with Qt4.8 (final, stable) and switch to Qt5 only in Sailfish OS 2.0 after Qt5 will have matured
This would mean either no android hardware compatibility or depending on xwayland which is yet another thing that might fail. Haven't tried it yet, but guess it would be available if it was trivial to support. Sure I wouldn't mind Qt4.8, that's what I use on my desktop computer and laptop, but as far as I know it still does not support wayland. It is possible that there are linux compatible hardware out there that does not require android, but chances are that those parts are either more expensive or have much worse specs.

Quote:
Now I'm starting to understand why Jolla has been advertising Android compatibility so much rather than native development: simply because due to lack of stable Qt5 APIs it is not possible to make advanced native applications, at least of 'producion quality'.
Native applications using libraries with non-stable APIs is in my opinion much better than partial android support. It's even better than perfect android support in my opinion. It probably won't change so much that it will be very difficult to port from Qt5.1 to 5.3 later. That being said, it does not make sense to support everything with nonstable api, mostly essential components.

Quote:
Anyway, finally some good news has just arrived. I got a message from Jolla that support for paid applications in the store is being worked on and the plan is to launch it during the spring.
That's great news Smile
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