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spyder81
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 14:41    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Anyway, finally some good news has just arrived. I got a message from Jolla that support for paid applications in the store is being worked on and the plan is to launch it during the spring. If by then they also manage to add at least QtPositioning, Location and Sensors (I didn't get any news about it) then this would enable me to publish my applications....[/quote]

Good news. Let's hope that Jolla keeps their promise and will support paid applications by spring.

I read that you are quite positive about BB10. I think that Blackberry is doing a good job right now. The new CEO is trying to turn things around. I think that BB10 is one of the best OS's right now. It's secure, fast and user friendly. It can run Android apps and it seems that Blackberry found a way to let them run as good as the native ones for Android. The only problem that Blackberry has, is that many users get a negative feeling when you mention the name Blackberry. Also they often associate Blackberry with the old BBOS7. They need to bring their marketing to a higher level.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 15:12    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Quote:
Jolla should have started with Qt4.8 (final, stable) and switch to Qt5 only in Sailfish OS 2.0 after Qt5 will have matured


This would mean either no android hardware compatibility or depending on xwayland which is yet another thing that might fail. Haven't tried it yet, but guess it would be available if it was trivial to support.


If I understand correctly, it would actually mean no hardware drivers for their very own Jolla Phone right now because they are using libhybris already for their own device.

I think the ST Ericsson SoC that was originally planned to be used on first Jolla Phone had native drivers (STE is member of Salfish Alliance), but since that SoC was terminated by ST Ericsson and Jolla had to switch to Qualcomm, they had no other choice but to use Android Drivers.
- Qualcomm Chipset needs Android drivers
- Android drivers need Libhybris,
- libhybris needs Wayland,
- Wayland needs Qt5.

That's also why the change in Qt version was announced so late - I guess they tried for some time to get their whole system working on Qt 4.8 before deciding to drop it and make the big cut.

I read somewhere (sorry can't remember where exactly) that the prototypes shown on Jolla Love Day - May 20, 2013 - were based on STE chipset.
Would be interesting to know at what date STEricsson decided to drop that chipset - and when they told Jolla about it.

So I beleive Jolla really didn't have much choice concerning which Qt version to use.

One of the reasons why it must have been quite a difficult task to get the Sailfish OS at least to its current Beta stage on time for announced shipment of first devices...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 21:51    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

naytsyrhc wrote:

I installed several different applications that use GPS/Location services and they work fine (e.g. Navfree, Google Maps, MeMobility, to name a few).

A very popular Android app, GPSTest, keeps looking for GPS signal eternally ("Searching for GPS") while showing 0 satellites in view and 0 in use, and that's while on the "native side" my GeoCoder application instantly returns precise GPS coordinates - but it installs and uses QtPositioning 5.1 as a dependency. That's without SIM card inserted. So maybe the coordinates you're getting are from network (cell) based positioning or AGPS, not from GPS... I still didn't bother to insert the SIM card to the Jolla, so I don't know if it works with the SIM card inserted, but it definitely DOESN'T without one (while at the same time native applications get GPS location without problems and within a second or two), which suggests that it is not a "pure" GPS-based positioning. I waited some 20 minutes for GPSTest app and it was still "Searching for GPS", then I gave up.

I have also tried Compass PRO Android app - the compass arrow is 'stuck' at 40 degrees North and does not move by an inch no matter what you do with the phone - and, again, that's while on the "native side" (e.g. in my StarFinder or SunCalc application) compass works just fine (but they install QtSensors 5.1 as a dependency).

So I don't really know what it is all about, but I can say for sure that in ACL without SIM card inserted GPS does not work, and that compass doesn't work at all, either. Haven't tried accelerometer, though.

Quote:

It's also a bit sad, that only one instance of an android app can run in foreground and that all android apps share same sandbox, but on the other hand I like that and it clearly seperates Sailfish native apps from Android apps and so there is always a real advantage to get a native app instead of the android app. Maybe Jolla did it that way by intention, because this way you can clearly see, that you are running an android app and they have control over the launched apps in order to not let android apps forcing system to go down.

To be honest, I don't believe that Jolla intentionally CRIPPLED Android compatibility (they've been advertising so much) to promote native apps (they don't talk about at all). It's much more likely that 1 GB of RAM is too little to run Android apps in separate Dalvik instances like on BB10 which has 2 GB of RAM.

Ketlik wrote:

This would mean either no android hardware compatibility or depending on xwayland which is yet another thing that might fail. Haven't tried it yet, but guess it would be available if it was trivial to support. Sure I wouldn't mind Qt4.8, that's what I use on my desktop computer and laptop, but as far as I know it still does not support wayland. It is possible that there are linux compatible hardware out there that does not require android, but chances are that those parts are either more expensive or have much worse specs.

Of course, I do understand the reasoning behind it. I'm not saying that going Qt5 did not have any valid reasons or advantages, I'm just wondering if maybe staying with Qt4.8 (at least in the initial period) wouldn't have had bigger advantages, or at least less negative consequences.

We can't see at the moment any other manufacturers rushing to provide Sailfish OS on their Android hardware, so at least for now Android hardware compatibility does not help Sailfish OS to expand. It might have made manufacturing the Jolla phone cheaper, but the basic question is if it was worth getting a semi-functional system in exchange and so severe limitations of native software development. And we don't really know how much longer will it take for all Qt5.2 modules to get final and stable - last time I heard it was December 2013, but they still aren't.

Maybe it would have been better to stay with Qt4.8 in the initial phase: instantly get a fully functional Sailfish OS (as all APIs in Qt4.8 have been stable, mature and well documented for a long time) which would surely help it to get more popular and would enable native software development to start much more dynamically. Then switch to Qt5 on the SECOND Jolla phone, only THAT ONE (and all the next ones) being Android hardware-compatible.

Yes, it would mean that all software would need to be ported between the first and the second "generation" of Sailfish OS, but IMO it would still be better than how it is now, i.e. at least half a year wasted on not being able to release any advanced applications at all, and Sailfish OS getting a reputation of an unfinished system lacking software.

Quote:

Native applications using libraries with non-stable APIs is in my opinion much better than partial android support.

Better or not, the biggest problem is that they cannot be normally distributed through the Jolla store. Jolla will only allow them after they become stable. Which for all the important APIs will surely take months, so serious development won't start before summer or so.... And if so then the current Jolla phone model through most of its life time will remain just a "beta device" anyway, and in such sense IMO launching it with Qt4.8 rather than Qt5 (while working on Qt5 support for the following devices) would have been better, not worse...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 22:08    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I think the ST Ericsson SoC that was originally planned to be used on first Jolla Phone had native drivers (STE is member of Salfish Alliance), but since that SoC was terminated by ST Ericsson and Jolla had to switch to Qualcomm, they had no other choice but to use Android Drivers.
- Qualcomm Chipset needs Android drivers
- Android drivers need Libhybris,
- libhybris needs Wayland,
- Wayland needs Qt5.

The question is if there really were no other choices but either STE or Qualcomm. TI OMAP for example, or some ARM-based SoC from e.g. Samsung. Qualcomm's Snapdragon surely isn't the only existing SoC on the market.

Please note how e.g. the BlackBerry Z10 is available in two versions: STL100-2 -3 and -4 with Snapdragon S4 Krait, and STL100-1 with Texas Instruments OMAP 4470....

And both of them run Qt4.8, so either RIM made their own drivers for QNX or they were available from the SoC vendor...

P.S. Maybe the choice of chipset was limited by its support for LTE, but LTE doesn't work anyway, so it looks that Jolla still needs to make their own driver at least for that...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 08.Jan.2014 23:37    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I read that you are quite positive about BB10. I think that Blackberry is doing a good job right now. The new CEO is trying to turn things around. I think that BB10 is one of the best OS's right now. It's secure, fast and user friendly. It can run Android apps and it seems that Blackberry found a way to let them run as good as the native ones for Android. The only problem that Blackberry has, is that many users get a negative feeling when you mention the name Blackberry. Also they often associate Blackberry with the old BBOS7. They need to bring their marketing to a higher level.

Yes, BB10 is a great OS. It looks really great (IMO better than anything else) and it delivers fantastic performance. It is also very stable and with countless advanced security-related options. It has further improved considerably throughout 2013. I like it how RIM does not impose almost any restrictions when it comes to development and distribution - they accept nearly anything, even Symbian or Harmattan components. Even a small Qt (C++) function providing to QML Nokia's geocoding services still works on BB10 because apparently for Nokia servers the phone must be a Nokia if it uses com.nokia.symbian and com.nokia.extras Smile

The only problem is that RIM (and this applies to other manufacturers as well, also to Jolla) needs to find a way to make millions of dumb people (so blinded with iOS and Android that they don't want to even just CHECK any other options) at least try their phones and see how great they are. But it's as difficult as trying to make an average desktop Windows user at least try Linux.
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spyder81
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PostPosted: Thursday, 09.Jan.2014 01:54    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
[...]

Yes, BB10 is a great OS. It looks really great (IMO better than anything else) and it delivers fantastic performance. It is also very stable and with countless advanced security-related options. It has further improved considerably throughout 2013. I like it how RIM does not impose almost any restrictions when it comes to development and distribution - they accept nearly anything, even Symbian or Harmattan components. Even a small Qt (C++) function providing to QML Nokia's geocoding services still works on BB10 because apparently for Nokia servers the phone must be a Nokia if it uses com.nokia.symbian and com.nokia.extras Smile

The only problem is that RIM (and this applies to other manufacturers as well, also to Jolla) needs to find a way to make millions of dumb people (so blinded with iOS and Android that they don't want to even just CHECK any other options) at least try their phones and see how great they are. But it's as difficult as trying to make an average desktop Windows user at least try Linux.


By relaesing the cheap 'Jakarta' in March or April, Blackberry is going to try to bring the BB 10 experience to more consumers. In an interview that Chen had today, he said that the Jakarta will be released under $200. With that price they are going to try to confince more users to try BB10. I think it's a good step. The most important thing for Blackberry now is to attract as many users as they can. The marketshare needs to get up. Only then you can get the attention of the developers. The Z10 was too expensive by release and the Z30 is, at the moment, also quite on the high price. Unfortunately only Apple, maybe Samsung, is in the luxurious position to release a device for 600 euro's or more and despite the price sell millions of it. The 5s 64 GB is here in the Netherlands more than 800(!) euro's.Despite the shy high price, people are still running to the store and thinking that there is no more than Apple.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Thursday, 09.Jan.2014 04:43    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

The 5s 64 GB is here in the Netherlands more than 800(!) euro's.Despite the shy high price, people are still running to the store and thinking that there is no more than Apple.

Yeah, that's really an insane price. The 5s surely isn't worth it. For 800 euros one can buy a good laptop... But that's what marketing does to people's brains.... in China teenagers sell their kidneys to get an iPhone and in the US a 4-year old kid got nervous breakdown after he upgraded his iPhone to iOS 7, didn't like it and was told that there's no way back to iOS 6.
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