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Jolla splitting into two companies and changing management

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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 14.Jul.2015 17:17    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

during the glory days of Nokia, no one posted things like "Nokia is the only profitable manufacturer" and then argued against other companies competing.

... and from the moment when the first iPhone came out, Apple-sponsored media kept saying that "Nokia is fading" Wink
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 14.Jul.2015 18:58    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Should other manufacturers of mobile devices just exit the market altogether?


I am not saying that they should, I am just saying that the fact that as reported on Znet:

Should it do so, it will be entering a crowded market and not necessarily a healthy one. Of every $1 made in mobile, all but eight cents of it goes to Apple - Android device manufacturers simply aren't making a great deal of money.

It is simply not a very attractive market.

Today Nokia announced it is looking to return to the market by licencing its brand. As they apparently did with the tablet made and sold by Foxcon. As they say:

The right path back to mobile phones for Nokia is through a brand-licensing model. That means identifying a partner that can be responsible for all of the manufacturing, sales, marketing and customer support for a product."

So they want to make some money on their brand. A non descript phone manufacturer could pay them a fee to be allowed to use the Nokia name, hoping to sell more. Hardly something that would provide an interesting phone I think.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/nokias-mobile-return-wltm-a-partner-gsoh- must-like-cool-handsets/

My personal opinion on Jolla is that they only have a chance if they offer a full service niche phone with full Android compatibility (including Google play store services). This may be a viable strategy: a niche high end phone with no practical limitations and decent security. I think this can only be done if they take ownership of the full stack (hardware and software, including a decent cloud back end system).
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 15.Jul.2015 00:07    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Android device manufacturers simply aren't making a great deal of money.
It is simply not a very attractive market.

So this sounds like an argument towards making NON-Android phones. It is the Android market that is so overcrowded, but this not necessarily has to apply to other OSes.

I deeply believe that there are more than enough people left, who wouldn't mind using a different system than Android. Some of them simply don't like it but continue to use it due to no decent alternatives, some of them simply got tired of using it for many years and would like to have something new and different (while at the same time iOS is too dumb and locked for them).

The problem is that there are still no decent alternatives. Jolla - hardly anyone knows about it, and even those who have heard of it mostly consider it an Android clone (with custom launcher) as almost only Android software is available for it, i.e. not much difference. And Jolla does not seem to people like a serious company, due to no support for developers, no serious app store, no promotion, and actually the Jolla phone having already been given up on, with no replacement. Ubuntu Touch - not much better than that. BB10 - a great system but on a quite poor and rather old hardware, maybe except for the Passport but its exotic form factor isn't to everyone's liking. Windows Phone - a plainly boring and still very limited, dumbphone OS, not providing anything important that Android and iOS wouldn't have but lacking a lot that they have. And with the ugly face of Elop - the Nokia Destroyer - looking at people from behind it, that those who were using Symbian in the past (i.e. half of current Android users) and liked it surely don't consider an advantage.

So I wouldn't say that the problem is that everyone only wants to use Android or iOS and wouldn't accept anything else (especially if ACL would still give access to all the software one is used to), the problem is that there is still nothing that would offer the following combination: a good OS on a good hardware offered by a serious company that is truly determined to go on with it.

Let alone all the technical difficulties of doing so (or maybe it wouldn't be that hard at all, quite possibly much less difficult than creating a new OS from scratch given that Symbian had already been moved entirely to Qt), just purely theoretically: I strongly believe that if the current "new Nokia" suddenly announced that they go back to Symbian (in a new, seriously refreshed and upgraded form - HD displays, multi-core CPUs and powerful GPUs, further polished UI, etc.) and on top of that with the addition of ACL to give all the Android users the possibility to continue using their favourite apps, and if such a system came out on some high-grade phones (aluminium like the N8/E7, good PureView camera, nice gorilla glass screen, etc.) then they would sell MILLIONS instantly (just like they instantly sold millions of N8's with its new Symbian^3 - after years of huge stagnation they were able to reverse it within one day), because people's sympathy and sentiment to Nokia and Symbian hasn't faded away, or quite possibly it even rose, as it is always the case with nostalgic memories of good old "classic" devices that served people well over decades - for the same reason e.g. car manufacturers often go back to using old model names (and some design elements) of classic models from the past - mostly remembered for their reliability and quality (compared to today's plasticy sh*t). And if such a system indeed turned out to be powerful, stable and reliable (which was never hard to achieve on Symbian, it was enough to give it sufficiently good hardware to run on) then it would allow for quite a rapid comeback and quickly regaining several times more marketshare than what Windows Phone ever managed to reach. It probably wouldn't work this way with MeeGo (because there never was so much sentiment/nostalgy for it), but with Symbian I believe it would work. And if done in a serious and wise way (which would take e.g. rewriting all the hardware drivers and change the kernel to allow the OS to work on an Android-compatible hardware for much cheaper and quicker manufacturing of phones than if custom hardware was needed - like everyone does now) this would really give such OS much bigger chances for sucess than all the Jollas, Ubuntus, Tizens, and even BB10s, combined.

Or there are actually even easier and faster possibilities, which would make it even cheaper and simpler to reach - that "new Symbian" could actually be.... 100% Linux (e.g. Mer), just made to resemble the look and functionality of Symbian (which wouldn't be that hard given how similar Symbian Belle and MeeGo UIs were - it would only take tweaking the existing Harmattan's UI) with all the necessary face-liftings and improvements but within the same style, and made compatible with all the existing Symbian software written in Qt (i.e. an overhelming majority of apps made since 2009 or so) which also wouldn't be that hard to achive thanks to both being Qt based, not much more than the inclusion of Symbian's Qt Components and a few handlers to redirect calls to Symbian's specific Qt APIs to Mer's equivalent ones (and emulating those few ones which don't have an equivalent). This way an Android hardware compatible kernel and all the drivers would already be there (as they already exist on Mer) - which means no need to make any such things, and the OS would be a standard Linux, i.e. no proprietary code to develop and maintain in the future. Actually, the whole thing hardly different than.... a Jolla, just with Symbian-like UI instead of Silica, and a couple of things to provide compatibility with Symbian's Qt apps. Average users wouldn't even be able to distinguish it from old Symbian or realize that there's something different inside of it...

To be honest, it actually surprises me very much that no one even thinks about such a possibility. I can't think of any other new (or existing, struggling to survive) OS having better (or even equal) chances for a successful start than such a new revived Symbian (or even better such Linux based new "generation" of it), simply because no other platform in this world has a fraction of sympathy, sentiment, nostalgy (call it whatever you like) that millions of people still have towards Symbian they were using many years and which they recall as more stable, reliable, power efficient, simple to use and secure than today's overloaded, sluggish and troubled with security risks Android from almighty Google that wants to know even when you go to the toilet. Many of them even still keep their Symbian phones in their drawers and often play with them, regretting that their hardware is so dated or else they might happily use them even now.

The world has already seen a few of such comebacks, and some of them were quite successful, so it wouldn't be anything exceptional.

Steve Jobs was able to revive and entirely port to a new platform his Mac OS twice: first from wholly proprietary codebase and Motorola 68xxx architecture to Unix and PowerPC architecture, then again from PowerPC to Intel x86. A little bit of determination and he did it, twice, successfully. Compared to it, re-creating Symbian on a Linux platform would be (thanks to both being Qt based) a piece of cake. Some might say that "it wouldn't be a true Symbian" - oh, really? How come that Mac OS remained true Mac OS after both changing the ENTIRE code base (up to and including the last bit) and also (twice) the CPU architecture? Clearly, it's not about those few bits of code deeply underneath, but about the look, feel and functionality - as long as it remains the same it's still the same real thing.

Come on, Nokia - don't do that sh*t of only licensing your brand to some cr*ppy Android phone makers - this way it won't take long for people's sentiment to your brand and your past to fade away as soon as people realize that they're the same boring Android phones made by the same manufacturers as before, just with your logo placed on them. Do what I wrote above - come back with Symbian on Linux and have a new beginning.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 15.Jul.2015 11:00    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Why don't you send the above (as a letter) to Nokia - you never know, they might take you up on your suggestions, especially with your knowledgeable credentials. Smile
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 15.Jul.2015 12:59    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I fully agree with Michal.

What Nokia should do (and I think they will do) is to design a device and then let Foxconn manufacture it like Apple with "Designed in California, Made in China".

Creating a Linux based "Symbian" platform would be great but I think they should base it off Maemo 5 and develop two flavors - one for full touch devices and one for keyboard ones (portrait/landscape optimized UIs). The hardware and kernel drivers should be "Android compatible" in order to enable the use of off-the-shelf reference designs from Qualcomm and other manufacturers and then concentrate on software, case design and antenna performance.

If Nokia introduce a new platform called Symbian based on Maemo and treat it seriously, it would be an instant success, especially since the brand has a strong reputation still and a high quality Nokia designed smartphone would sell like hot cakes.

The reason Android is so strong is due to the lack of alternatives. If a viable alternative platform appear, it would gain traction and one thing is for sure: It should be fully featured like Symbian was not to mention Maemo. Locked down and restricted platforms will never be able to succeed since iOS owns that particular segment.

Stable, reliable, feature rich and easy to use are the way forward for Nokia and they had those things with Maemo, MeeGo and Symbian.

What I would like to see is a revival of the original Hildon UI used in Series 90 and Maemo OS 2008 for Communicator styled devices since I still very much prefer that computer styled layout.

A new truly powerful device from Nokia with a Linux/Maemo based "Symbian" would be of big interest to me and I would be more than happy to finally abandon Android for it.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 15.Jul.2015 18:14    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I said Mer, because Mer is actively developed. It already does offer all the things like Android hardware compatible kernel/drivers, which are used in the Jolla. Nokia's Maemo or MeeGo did not have it. It also keeps track of current Qt development while on Maemo/MeeGo it stopped at Qt 4.8. There's Wayland on it. And so on. So Mer is simply up to date, while Maemo/MeeGo would need a lot of work to bring it to such state. With Mer, just like you can do with Sailfish OS, you can just grab some Nexus 4 and have your OS run on it - not possible with Maemo/MeeGo in the state they were left in. For a small company like the new Nokia, this would make a huge difference.

Besides, I don't think that for majority of users it would make any difference. Only geeks know and rememeber what Maemo or MeeGo were, everyone else doesn't have a clue. Functionally, it wouldn't differ, either.

As for possibly reviving Hildon UI in the future - I guess it would be easier to go with Mer (for much quicker time-to-market) and then (if ever needed/wanted) port Hildon UI to it (which would also be a good opportunity to properly and fully re-do it in Qt) than to go with Maemo and have to spend a lot of time on having to do all the things needed for Android hardware compatibility, Qt 5 upgrade, etc., and all that before you can start doing anything else... It's been simply too much time since the development of Maemo stopped and there would be too much to do to bring it up to date.

Anyway, as I wrote, such a "Symbian on Linux" would be just like Mac OS after it was ported from the properietary Apple system to Unix. The look&feel, functionality, principles of operation, etc. could be easily made to remain identical, with no apparent differences to the end user. Symbian UIDs, Symbian Signed certificates, capabilities, etc. would no longer be needed as they're not in use on Linux - this means no certification hell at all, everything that needs signing on Symbian would work fine without it. Due to Symbian's completely different binary format, apps would need to be recompiled and repackaged by developers, but that's not a problem at all (few minutes of work), and after several years such a refreshment would actually be useful.

A perfect example of how easy it is to have compatibility with existing Symbian Qt apps on a completely different "alien" OS (as long as it contains Qt 4.8 ) is the BB10 platform, where you can just include Symbian Qt Components in your project (as they're not installed by default) and then just recompile/rebuild your existing Symbian code and have it run fine (and look identically) on a BB10 phone. I still have two such apps in the BB World store, which I still didn't have time to port to Cascades - they look and work identically as on Symbian - buttons, menus, whole functionality - identical. It only took including Symbian Components and recompiling/repackaging the project for BB10...

Just take a look at e.g. my SunCalc Premium for BB10 - the screenshots show it running on the Z10, where it looks and works IDENTICALLY as on Symbian, and to have it work I just needed to recompile it and include Symbian Components (and do a workaround for a few QtQuick bugs on BB10, but that's a BB10 specific issue, not related to what we're talking about)....

And that on a system never meant to provide any Symbian apps compatibility! So on a system intended to provide such compatibility (that would have Symbian Qt Components preinstalled) it would take to recompile/repackage the project ONLY, i.e. some 5 minutes of work.

The only things needed for Symbian Qt apps compatibility are:

- Qt 4.8 / Qt Quick 1.0 preinstalled
- Symbian Qt Components (com.nokia.symbian.extras 1.1) preinstalled so that they don't have to be included in every project
- also very useful would be to have Nokia's proprietary Qt plugins and extensions (e.g. Nokia Maps plugin) - that's what is missing on BB10 due to which you can't use such functions in Symbian components / QtQuick apps on BB10.

See how little it takes?

Even funnier, com.nokia.meego.extras (MeeGo Qt Components) could also be included (why not, just a few MB of space) for simultaneous Harmattan Qt apps compatibility Wink

Or funniest of all, we could actually make such a Symbian clone ourselves. If we could only have access to the source code of Silica (which Jolla promised years ago), a few guys with some spare time could tweak Silica UI to look and behave like Symbian UI (home screens, menus, status bars, icons, etc.), then install Qt 4.8 and Symbian Components on it - and even just that would give you a phone whose UI looks like Symbian and runs Symbian Qt apps Wink It's really THAT simple in its most basic form. Of course, for a perfect clone of Symbian's look and feel it would take more than that, e.g. porting Symbian's specific system apps (but on Belle they were also written in Qt, so no big deal), taking care so that all C++ Qt APIs work as they should (all needed libs are installed, etc.), but this really shows what a simple task it actually is. Almost a garage project.

As I said, if anyone has any problems with understanding how easy it is to have Symbian apps run on a completely alien system (as long as it is Qt based), BB10 is the perfect example - just recompile your apps and include Symbian Components in them and while they run on your BB10 phone you're forgetting that it's not a Symbian phone as everything looks and works the same... See it once, and you'll lose all doubts that creating a Linux-based system that looks and works like Symbian and runs its apps would be of any serious difficulty...

Lastly, add ACL to it for Android apps compatibility so that no one complains about scarcity of apps, and what else one might need... Symbian, Linux and Android in one.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 16.Jul.2015 01:11    Post subject: just my 2 cents...   Reply with quote   

the idea to call upon the Symbian nostalgia sounds like something to look into but base it on Mer just because... because it is what SailfishOS is based upon and is basically... sh!t
and a load of it - crashes all the time for no good reason, doesn't start up and what not

i don't think the Symbian nostalgics would even remotely consider that as a revival, more like a killing blow.

whereas having used N900 with Fremantle for 4½ years, sometimes weeks at end without issues, making calls, sending texts and... well, that was about all you could do with the N900 as the browser and other programs were using too much memory (of which the N900 had too little) but Maemo supported Qt too, so it would be easy enough to update that and support Symbian apps.
furthermore it would offer the opportunity to present a decent successor to the N900 which has also quite a few nostalgics - and not only on TMO.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 16.Jul.2015 01:30    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

AVR4000 wrote:
[...]

Creating a Linux based "Symbian" platform would be great but I think they should base it off Maemo 5 and develop two flavors - one for full touch devices and one for keyboard ones (portrait/landscape optimized UIs). [...]


maybe i missed something there, but why shouldn't one use a touch device in landscape?
thinking of it, the N900 / Communicator successor should by default be in landscape and only apps have also portrait mode - just like Hildon.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 16.Jul.2015 11:13    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

the idea to call upon the Symbian nostalgia sounds like something to look into but base it on Mer just because... because it is what SailfishOS is based upon and is basically... sh!t
and a load of it - crashes all the time for no good reason, doesn't start up and what not


Not because it is what SailfishOS is based upon, but because it is being actively developed and up-to-date.

And my Jolla's last crash/reboot/hanging/... has been several months ago, while being my daily private and work mobile phone...
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PostPosted: Thursday, 16.Jul.2015 12:57    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Casanunda wrote:
[...]


Not because it is what SailfishOS is based upon, but because it is being actively developed and up-to-date.

And my Jolla's last crash/reboot/hanging/... has been several months ago, while being my daily private and work mobile phone...


the fact that SailfishOS is a sh!t load of sh!t is beyond the discussion of this thread.
Jolla may be a bunch of incompetent @$$O, but they didn't do the OS, they USED Mer
Q.E.D.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 16.Jul.2015 17:05    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

the idea to call upon the Symbian nostalgia sounds like something to look into but base it on Mer just because... because it is what SailfishOS is based upon and is basically... sh!t

First of all, Mer was given only as an example. Secondly, not because Sailfish OS runs on it, but because it is up to date with all the drivers, kernel, Qt version, and so on, while Maemo isn't. Should they prefer so, it might as well be Ubuntu instead, or anything else that's up to date. It might be Maemo, but only if they have a year or so, and the manpower and other things, to bring it up to date first.

Quote:

whereas having used N900 with Fremantle for 4½ years, sometimes weeks at end without issues, making calls, sending texts and... well, that was about all you could do with the N900 as the browser and other programs were using too much memory (of which the N900 had too little) but Maemo supported Qt too, so it would be easy enough to update that and support Symbian apps.

As I wrote, today it is necessary to have a platform that runs on an Android compatible hardware, because having to manufacture custom hardware is much costlier and slower. Maemo has nothing to support it, and it would take a lot of work and time to update it, while other Linux platforms exist which have it already done. It does make a difference, because a company like Nokia might not have the time, resources and funds needed to first bring Maemo up to date for Android hardware compatibility, before they can even start doing the "Symbian" stuff.

Quote:

maybe i missed something there, but why shouldn't one use a touch device in landscape?

thinking of it, the N900 / Communicator successor should by default be in landscape and only apps have also portrait mode - just like Hildon.

Portrait or landscape - it has nothing to do with which OS you'll use. You can make any system work either way, because you'll be tweaking or making from scratch its whole UI for Symbian look&feel, anyway.

Anyway, as I said, it is of little importance. The underlying OS is actually just a base that runs Qt middleware - the only really important part as for it is that it properly supports hardware it is supposed to run on.

There are three layers: the "core" OS, then Qt over it, and the UI on the top. In Jolla it is Mer at the "bottom", then Qt 5, and Silica on top. In such "Symbian" phone it would be some Linux system (as I said, it might as well be any other up to date OS, even Ubuntu), then both Qt 4 and 5 (Qt 4 for direct Symbian Qt apps backward compatibility and Qt 5 for current and future development), and Symbian-like UI on top. Only the uppermost part is really visible to the end user, then it is Qt that delivers all the APIs, while the main task of the lowermost OS is to just be stable and handle the hardware it runs on.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 16.Jul.2015 20:13    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I really like the idea of basing a new mass market product on Mer. While symbian components are great for backwards compatibility, I do think they should also make a way to use Qt Components for the same thing. The idea is to make one API of components and let you use them on both mobile and desktop, no need to use different APIs even if the target device is different.

If you have 2 companies with the same core, and cooperating on making it best possible, and allow it to be flexible, then I think you will end up with a better product for both of them. I think Nokia making another GUI for mer, will make mer core better for Jolla, and Jolla will make the mer core better for Nokia. I think it's a win-win.

Personally I think I would prefer a GUI based on both Qt5 and KDE Frameworks 5. That's mostly because I use KDE on my desktop, and I want my phone to share as much code with my desktop as possible. I believe code sharing makes more flexible code, but with more eyes on it, it also means that the extra bugs that flexibility introduces are seen more easily so in the end gets more robust.

This GUI could then again be flexible enough to make it easy to make your own GUI if you feel like it. Then you could have a symbian theme, a meego theme, and a hildon theme, and any other kind someone would want, and apps only using the official APIs that support the theming, would automatically adjust to fit. Such powerful theming support comes at a price however, so you can only go so far on flexibility before it cost more than the rewards are worth.

Take a menu bar for additional functionality, if you make an API for such a menu, then it can be accessed as a menu bar on desktop, a swipe, or a context menu on a phone. Or differently if the GUI wants. The more functionality is made into an API like that, the less work app developers need to put into making it work on different GUIs, and both popular and unpopular GUIs would work with fewer, or maybe even no changes.
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PostPosted: Friday, 17.Jul.2015 00:19    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
[...]

As I wrote, today it is necessary to have a platform that runs on an Android compatible hardware, because having to manufacture custom hardware is much costlier and slower. Maemo has nothing to support it, and it would take a lot of work and time to update it, while other Linux platforms exist which have it already done. It does make a difference, because a company like Nokia might not have the time, resources and funds needed to first bring Maemo up to date for Android hardware compatibility, before they can even start doing the "Symbian" stuff.


[...]


let me see.......
Q3 2016, that's like 15 months...

NOKIA, no money?!? ¦-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
€15'600'000'000, no money?
maybe you should get out of your code sometime and make a reality check?

Android compatibiltiy...
let's try to see what we are talking about, shall we?
N1 is an Android tablet and had thus better be "android compatible"
NOKIA is going to ask - who knows, Foxconn (...) to build a NEW design, with a new software that is ABSOLUTELY NOT Android, right?
think about that...
NOKIA learned something, rather then those idiots from Jolla who did after 10+ yrs of Marmo just exactly the same errors - learned NOTHING
you want something that looks like Symbian... let me think... MeeGo maybe?
looks EXACTLY like Symbian (o, really? why would that be? maybe because it was designed as successor to Symbian in the 1st place...)
and it's based on a MUCH better (mobile) kernel then any garbage like... Mer, buntu-cr@p
my N9 still works, just as it did the 1st day, hardly ever crashes - well, admittedly i don't use it that often any more... :-{ the last true NOKIA
and again, 15 months, plenty of time to bring it up to date, don't you think so?
and alienate it maybe?
and if memory serves well NOKIA still OWNs MeeGo

FOSS, community???
maybe, maybe(!) NOKIA learned its lesson...

looking at the facts, i beg to disagree but hey...
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Friday, 17.Jul.2015 00:21    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

The reason why I think that such a Symbian successor could be successful is because a lot of people are very nostalgic about Symbian. I see more and more comments from people that they're tired with Android and that they regret that Symbian is no longer available because Symbian phones had much better battery life, were much more stable, secure, and straightforward to use. True or not, but that's what many people think.

Why did some 20,000 people preorder the Jolla in 2013? Mostly because it was a direct MeeGo successor. Same way, people might want to check the "new Symbian" mostly because it would be a direct Symbian successor - the difference is that there probably would be incomparably more of such people than in case of Jolla, simply because there were incomparably more Symbian users than MeeGo users so incomparably more people are nostalgic about it, or even simply miss it. And if it additionally came again from Nokia (about which people also still have very positive memories and which they consider the "mother" of Symbian) I suspect that many people would want to give it a try. That's of course if also the hardware and design of such phones were good enough.

People clearly aren't interested too much in NEW stuff - all the BB10's, Windows Phones, Tizens, Jollas... just don't seem to interest them too much. So - which seems to be the only remaining alternative - maybe at least try and see how instead of that people would like such a "retro" stuff that many of them are apparently so nostalgic about. No one has tried it yet so, so why not at least check it, especially that it does not seem to require much work - certainly much less than creating any new platform from scratch. Mer is ready to use, Qt is ready to use, only the UI needs to be made.

It's just that this new Symbian should IMO really closely resemble the old one (not necessarily identical, but closely following that UI style and behaviour), so that it is really seen by people as a successor and continuation, and not just a catchy name. People won't buy something that's only called "Symbian" but looks and works completely differently (same way, I'm afraid that it won't take long for people to stop buying phones that Nokia intends to just get from Android makers and only put Nokia logo on them). Of course, such new Symbian has to have many improvements because it's been years since Symbian was halted so it is seriously dated (it takes adding at least 720p HD resolution, good support for gestures, some nice transparencies and transitions in the UI to make it look attractive and modern, and so on) but it should be kept within the Symbian "style" as closely as possible. Or maybe it could offer two user-swichable UI versions, one resembling the old Symbian as closely as possible (if not simply identical), and a new modern "new Symbian" one, which could differ as much as needed and bring new stuff - switchable by the user on the fly. It wouldn't be that hard to make it, just two sets of UI files.

As for the old Symbian Components, they'd only be needed for backward compatibility. Of course, if they were there, they might also be used by newly created applications, but I doubt anyone would want to use them for any new apps as they simply look dated. For all new apps, some other Components would be available simultaneously, e.g. standard Qt Components, just tweaked for proper Symbian-style look, but retaining full compatibility for multi-platform portability.

Besides, users could install any other set of components, e.g. Harmattan Qt Components for N9 apps compatibility - just like you can do it even on BB10. Or Ubuntu Touch Components for compatibility with its apps (which are mostly done in pure QML+JS). And so on. This is how flexible it can be....

Anyway, with a system like Mer (or similar) underneath, such a new Symbian phone would never have any such problems as what the old "proprietary" Symbian had - compatibility with new hardware and technologies (proprietary kernel, lack of drivers), exotic binary format, proprietary package format, and so on. In other words, no need to maintain such a system all alone by a single company. Its development would go on by itself - Nokia would only have to take care about what's above the Qt (that also develops on its own) level, i.e. mostly just the UI. I guess that it can't be simpler and cheaper than that. Of course, if needed and wanted, they could also collaborate with Mer, Digia, etc. and add different things to the OS and Qt - and same way they'd benefit from what gets added to the OS and Qt by other companies (e.g. Jolla) collaborating with Mer and Digia. It could be a very fruitful and mutually beneficial ecosystem of completely independent entities.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Friday, 17.Jul.2015 02:18    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

NOKIA, no money?!? ¦-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
€15'600'000'000, no money?
maybe you should get out of your code sometime and make a reality check?

Are you really sure that you would really like Nokia to take care about the whole platform? Because every platform it touched in its history it very quickly got tired of and killed: GEOS, S80, S90/Hildon, UIQ, Symbian^3, Maemo, MeeGo, Meltemi. No single one survived. Want another one to join the club?

When there is too much to do, Nokia always gets tired, dumps it and looks for an "easier alternative". That's where Windows Phone came from as instead of developing Symbian and MeeGo themselves, they believed Microsoft would develop WP for them and they'd be only selling phones with it and earning easy money.

Put on them once again all that burden of having to maintain the whole operating system themselves rather than just the UI, and a year later they'll get tired again and they'll find themselves some new Elop the Magician.

As for "no money", I actually meant no money they would like to spend, because their miserliness has also been well known for years. No money for Hildon/S90, no money for Internet Tablets, etc., and that when they had 100 times more money than now. All those things, if kept alive and properly supported, would have kept them as market leader until today.

Anyway, it definitely isn't a good time to argue about Maemo vs. Mer. First make them interested in the idea of reviving that platform at all, and only if they show any interest you can start talking about any specific OS to use. Because, as for now, their only dream is to licence their brand logo to some Android phone maker.

I never said that I do mind using Maemo. I only said I seriously doubt they'd be willing to invest any time or money into bringing it up to date if they can just take for free an existing up-to-date system to use. As I wrote, for the very same purpose they brought Elop to Nokia - to have someone else develop the system for them, because they got too much tired with developing their own platforms themselves.

As for why revive Symbian and not Harmattan.... The N9 had 2 million users. Its successor (or at least advertised so), the Jolla, got 20,000 preorders, i.e. 1% of former N9 users bought it. Symbian had 200 million users, so if the same 1% would want to have it again, it means 2 million units for a good start. That's the difference. And as it would come from its original maker, Nokia (so it would make an impression of a fully legitimate successor), I guess that more than just 1% of former Symbian users would get tempted to try it again. If even just 5%, it would still mean 10 million phones to start with. So it's worth the hassle.
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