SYMBIAN OS SECTION
  -My-Symbian.com-
MAEMO  SECTION
-My-Maemo.com-
MEEGO  SECTION
-My-MeeGo.com-
SOFTWARE STORECONTACT


My-Symbian.com Forums

 
My-Symbian ~ My-Maemo ~ My-MeeGo
Symbian & Linux based Communicator and Smartphone Info Center
The Oldest Symbian Community Website - Since 1999
 
 Watched TopicsWatched Topics   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RulesRules   Log inLog in 
Lightweight, simplified version of the forumsMobile version
Jolla splitting into two companies and changing management

Go to page
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    My-Symbian ~ My-Maemo ~ My-MeeGo Forum Index -> Jolla Sailfish OS
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Friday, 24.Jul.2015 04:30    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

maybe consumers wouldn't be fooled by the Qt interface on top of... whatever?

99,9% of Symbian phone end users knew absolutely NOTHING about anything below the UI level. And those who knew a bit more, only needed it for the purpose of hacking the system, and nothing else besides that.

And an overwhelming majority of Symbian developers, since 2009 or so when Qt on Symbian was introduced, knew absolutely nothing about native Symbian development (I mean 'proper', 'core' Symbian), only Qt. Browse posts on Symbian forums on this site, or any other popular Symbian site, and see yourself.

Therefore, if users got the same UI with the same look and functionality, they would not see or care about any differences, and if developers got the same Qt, they would not see or care about any differences, either.

Quote:

one of the characteristic of Symbian was its stability and simplicity

What does the core OS have to do with "simplicity"? Simplicity of use depends on nothing else but UI. Stability? I would not say that the N9 was any less stable than Symbian Belle phones. Nor that its performance or resource efficiency was any worse.

Quote:

Symbian wasn't exactly reputed for security (quite some malware) or privacy, so that's possibly not something those "Symbian nostalgics" would even care much about.

I don't think any malware could do much on a NON-HACKED Symbian phone. At least I don't remember ever having experienced any. As far as I remember, all functions which a malware would need to use in order to impose any risk or do any harm required capabilities, i.e. being digitally signed. So only those who were blocking the Symbian Signed system and allowing installation of unsigned code were putting themselves at risk, but you can't blame an OS for being insecure after being hacked by the user, i.e. consciously and intentionally deprived of its security. Its the user's own choice.

Quote:

btw. wasn't symbian open-sources since NOKIA released it?

Partially, just like Harmattan. Nokia never made available all of it.
Back to top
N/A
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran



Joined: 17 Mar 2003

Posts: 2593

Thanks received:
31 in 27 posts
Thanks given: 20


Phone: N/A

PostPosted: Friday, 24.Jul.2015 07:33    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Nokia (or the Symbian Foundation, really) open sourced out of Symbian everything that was not specific to hardware (i.e., drivers for Nokia hw or Nokia cellular stack were never OSS), and they left out also a bunch S60 stuff, too (many applications, etc.)

However, it was only for a short period of time (a "snapshot") before Nokia dismantled Symbian Foundation and withdraw the OSS version.

The snapshot is still around (available), but doesn't quite match what Nokia did to Symbian^3 after it killed the OSS Symbian.
Back to top
MeowTseDong
Forum Regular
Forum Regular

Please add your avatar!

Joined: 29 May 2014

Posts: 153

Thanks received:
9 in 9 posts
Thanks given: 2


Phone: Nokia

PostPosted: Friday, 24.Jul.2015 18:25    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
Why call it "some browser UI"? It would actually be the EXACT SAME UI, no matter if on top of a Symbian or Linux kernel. The UI is made in Qt, not in "Symbian" or "Linux".

On Qt platforms, whatever the user sees and interacts with is made in Qt, so the OS that's underneath Qt is completely irrelevant. Why would you care what's deep down there if you can't even see it, and if it provides exactly the same functionality?

Reviving Symbian with its proprietary kernel is unrealistic - no one will do it, because no one will take all the costs, risks and difficulties of maintaining a wholly proprietary platform, if when based on Linux the maintenance and futher development of such a platform can be incomparably cheaper, easier and quicker. Even as mighty as it was in 2010, Nokia was going to move away from Symbian's proprietary core - that's why they were moving the platform to Qt. If they kept developing their own platforms (if there was no Elop), either they'd have gradually switched to Maemo/MeeGo entirely, or they would have done exactly the same as what I am suggesting now, i.e. moved Symbian entirely to Qt running upon a Linux core.

So I am not proposing anything new, but rather so that they go back to what they were going to do...


Everything you say makes sense and what I mentioned was my own opinion and bias. I personally don't like the Linux kernel because I think it is a mess. I have worked professionally with the Linux kernel in my job and thought it was just hairy additions everywhere. Linux Torvalds has even at one point threatened to throw out the ARM stuff because it was starting to become to messy.

As an engineer I'm biased against it as I think Linux gets a too market share in mobile but of course as you say the John on the street will never care about this.

That's why I like BB10 as it use QNX and I also believe that it is the architecture of QNX that has enabled Blackberry to implement so many features to it in a relative short time span. Compare this with Windows Phone which still lacking many basic features.

So yes, I would buy something because it is not Linux, but that's me. I'm an unusual and unpredictable customer.
Back to top
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Friday, 24.Jul.2015 22:16    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

MeowTseDong,

I fully understand your point, and I even agree with it.

However, if the choice is between either to have a Linux based Symbian "port" or not to have any at all (due to no one probably willing to lonely bring up to date and further develop Symbian's 'proprietary' kernel and therefore also all the Symbian drivers and such for all hardware), then I choose the Linux based option...

On a different note, I really like QNX, too. And I wouldn't mind a QNX-based Symbian port at all, which technically wouldn't be any harder to do than on Linux... (I already mentioned how it is enough to include Symbian Components with your project to be able to run Symbian Qt apps on BB10 - looking and working just like on a Symbian phone - thanks to BB10's built-in Qt4.8 / QtQuick support). But we know that it is unlikely to happen, because no one would want to pay BlackBerry for using QNX if Linux can be used for free, and I guess no one would want to make himself dependent on BlackBerry this way.
Back to top
Ketilk
Site supporter
Site supporter

Please add your avatar!

Joined: 19 Dec 2011

Posts: 514

Thanks received:
50 in 45 posts
Thanks given: 6


Phone: Sony Xperia XA(Android 7.0), Jolla, N9 , N900, N97-mini,

PostPosted: Thursday, 30.Jul.2015 19:17    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Keeping a long term supported linux distribution running stable for multiple years without reboot isn't unheard of. Solaris has openindiana as FOSS alternative, red hat has CentOS(stable) and Fedora(bleeding edge, not as stable) as FOSS alternatives, Ubuntu is mostly FOSS, with the exception of a few tools for managing a lot of them remotly(like rolling out updates), and tools for cloud storage. For a basic database, web, dns, storage, and more Linux, BSD, and/or Solaris/openindiana are quite stable. The GUI software isn't close when it comes to stability however, although it is good enough, in my experience still more reliable than the windows ecosystem for desktop.

Jolla managed to make a GUI for wayland that proved quite stable, it is still lacking a few features, but for it's usage it is definitely worth using. Xorg X11 is hard to improve, but that's why they started making wayland where they want to do things right, rather than keep old outdated stuff around. It takes time to build something new from ground up though so need more time before it catch up completely.

For phones, however, the user don't need as much flexibilty, and you don't need as much backwards compatibility, so it is easier to make the switch there. Promoting APIs that isn't tied too much to implementation(like Qt), means that there will be less work as the display framework evolve as they will adapt Qt to the new changes rather than switch all the applications individually. Xorg didn't really have much marketshare in the mobile segment, I think the maemo OSes including fremantle and harmattan was the largest out of them.

Symbian was opensourced in 2010, but they didn't update the sources after symbian^3, they kept the improvements in house, and maybe some other stuff too. The improvements of Anna, Bella, and not-published later internal versions was not opensourced.
Back to top
Kleuter
Site supporter
Site supporter

Please add your avatar!

Joined: 26 Apr 2009

Posts: 400

Thanks received:
31 in 22 posts
Thanks given: 13


Phone: Jolla, Iphone, E90, E71, 6310i, N900, BB.

PostPosted: Friday, 11.Sep.2015 23:20    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Apparently Dillon left the company:

https://together.jolla.com/question/107394/why-did-marc-dillon-leave/

And Some others too.
Back to top
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Monday, 14.Sep.2015 02:55    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Apparently Dillon left the company:

Well, this surely ISN'T a good news. If so important and devoted people leave (without a single word of public explanation as for now) then it doesn't mean anything good.

I recall how already two years ago he was moved from the CEO position to something else, and now I suspect that it wasn't his own decision, either. Quite possibly he was the one who wanted changes, while everyone else wanted it as it is. Maybe he couldn't stand all this mess anymore, so he just quit.

As I just wrote in a PM to you Kleuter, yesterday I installed the latest available version of Sailfish OS SDK. It's been nearly 1,5 years since I used it for the last time. Guess what, after 1,5 years in that latest version I've found exactly the same bugs (e.g. TextEdit still not recognized by the QtCreator editor - a very simple to correct bug reported to them already in mid 2014, still not even touched), Mer VM disconnecting at some point and requiring a restart to be able to connect to it again, exactly the same Qt libs and QML imports missing as 1,5 years ago (SystemInfo, Location, Positioning, Sensors...) and generally a huge mess like e.g. the RPM validator crying about no support in Harbour for modules which have already been allowed in Harbour for a long time (e.g. QtSensors 5.0)...

I knew how quickly install the missing packages and fix the most annoying things so I just did it, but let's imagine that some new developer wants to try developing for Sailfish OS.... This SDK alone will instanly scare him away for good, it doesn't take anything else. No one will want to first spend days or weeks on learning how to bring the SDK to a semi-usable state before he can even start developing...

Oh, and of course in this latest version there is not even a TRACE of support for the Jolla Tablet (e.g. in the Emulator) so while Jolla is already taking preorders for the tablet it is still not possible to normally develop anything for it. Expect "lots" of native applications when it comes out.

I just can't understand how a company that always stresses that their main goal is to develop the OPERATING SYSTEM and not to sell the hardware (which they do only until they find a licensee who'll then take care of it) does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to support that operating system, and all their activities are related to promoting and selling hardware, i.e. completely opposite to what they say they want to do.
Back to top
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Tuesday, 15.Sep.2015 08:55    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Let me just add to the above that - to my surprise - ALL the bugs in Silica itself are still present. Nearly 2 years ago I reported to Jolla (e.g. on their mailinglist) that there are problems related to font rendering (unless you define a specific font face, the default font used in such case gets rendered incorrectly - differently in the Emulator and on the device) and text alignment (in some cases text justification doesn't work). Guess what, after almost 2 years it turns out that they haven't even touched it.

So... if the SDK hasn't really been changed and bugs haven't been fixed for nearly TWO YEARS then how can native applications start coming? Compare that with Android runtime improvements listed in every single OS update changelog...

I ported MoonCalc to Sailfish OS once again, including all the changes and improvements from the recent BB10 versions. It took me less than 2 days. And now, for another 2 days, I've been struggling to find workarounds for these tiny (but annoying and negatively affecting the look of the application) Silica bugs that Jolla does not care to fix.

TWO YEARS! Come on, Jolla. Does it take a developer's LIFE TIME to get such simple text rendering bugs fixed, or e.g. making QtCreator's editor finally recognize the TextField entry without showing an error? If you don't care to fix it, who's going to do that? Your grandchildren?
Back to top
Casanunda
Site supporter
Site supporter



Joined: 01 Dec 2009

Posts: 438

Thanks received:
52 in 48 posts
Thanks given: 323


Phone: n900, Jolla

PostPosted: Tuesday, 15.Sep.2015 13:51    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

One question out of curiosity:
Is it possible to have a native app that can run in background even after closing (i.e. as a daemon) entered in Jolla store?
Or is this ONLY supported for Android apps now?
After update to OS 1.1.7 and the new available Android settings, Threema runs just fine and new messages appear instantly on the phone even when app is closed.
To get sound and LED notification, I still needed to install "Android notifications", an app that's of course not available in Jolla store but only on Openrepos.

I'm not sure it this is even possible with a native app without breaking Jolla Store rules...
Back to top
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Tuesday, 15.Sep.2015 15:40    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Is it possible to have a native app that can run in background even after closing (i.e. as a daemon) entered in Jolla store?

I guess it is allowed as I know at least one such native app which is present in the Jolla store: Battery Overlay. Sadly, it does not autostart; I don't know why (is it currently not possible, or not allowed, or simply the developer didn't make it).

In general, I must say that I am not too familiar with Harbour rules because they're not of my interest as long as still basic Qt libs and QML imports needed by my apps are not allowed (e.g. QtLocation) and support for paid apps is not provided....
Back to top
Ketilk
Site supporter
Site supporter

Please add your avatar!

Joined: 19 Dec 2011

Posts: 514

Thanks received:
50 in 45 posts
Thanks given: 6


Phone: Sony Xperia XA(Android 7.0), Jolla, N9 , N900, N97-mini,

PostPosted: Tuesday, 15.Sep.2015 20:48    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

systemd, which SailfishOS uses, does support user daemons out of the box. It is just a matter of placing the right .unit files in the right directory, and run the right systemd command to automatically start at boot, just like any system wide daemons. I have no idea if Jolla store permit that though.
Back to top
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Tuesday, 15.Sep.2015 23:49    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

I have no idea if Jolla store permit that though.

I bet they don't, and probably that's why Battery Overlay does not autostart. I'll have to check the version in Warehouse, maybe that one does. There are some other applications in Warehouse which autostart, e.g. "Call flasher" (or something like that).

Or I'll make it autostart myself.
Back to top
Casanunda
Site supporter
Site supporter



Joined: 01 Dec 2009

Posts: 438

Thanks received:
52 in 48 posts
Thanks given: 323


Phone: n900, Jolla

PostPosted: Wednesday, 16.Sep.2015 10:11    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Several apps come in two versions: one "basic" version in Jolla store, and an "extended version" on openrepos/warehouse that includes features that are not allowed in harbour.
Or there are extensions which are only available in warehouse.

One example:
There is an Owncloud app available in Jolla store which can be used to access data stored on an Owncloud server.
Then there is an addon "ownCloud photo backup daemon" that can automatically upload new photos from Jolla to that server without the owncloud app running. After installing the addon, it is fully integrated into the owncloud app (option to activate/deactivate within that app).
Of course that addon one is only available in openrepos...
Back to top
Ketilk
Site supporter
Site supporter

Please add your avatar!

Joined: 19 Dec 2011

Posts: 514

Thanks received:
50 in 45 posts
Thanks given: 6


Phone: Sony Xperia XA(Android 7.0), Jolla, N9 , N900, N97-mini,

PostPosted: Wednesday, 16.Sep.2015 20:27    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

They do have legitimate reasons for disallowing autostarting daemons by default, but I think the solution to this is not to disallow them completely, but rather build in some systemd-aware functionality in the installation-GUI and let it popup a message when the install is almost finished with: "This applications contains a daemon that runs in the background, and request permission to start at boot, do you want to grant that request? Yes/No/More Info".

In addition to this also have the possibility to enable/disable on boot and start/stop now in settings->apps->daemons or something like that.

And note: I don't know if it's better for non technical end users to use the term daemon, or if it's better to call them background processes, but the idea is the same no matter what you call it.
Back to top
Michal Jerz
Admin/Founder/Owner
Admin/Founder/Owner



Joined: 01 Sep 1999

Posts: 29436

Thanks received:
1096 in 698 posts
Thanks given: 286

Location: Poland
Phone: Jolla, BB Z10, BB Passport, N950, N900, N8, Nexus 4 (Ubuntu Touch), Lumia 920

PostPosted: Thursday, 17.Sep.2015 01:23    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

They do have legitimate reasons for disallowing autostarting daemons by default, but I think the solution to this is not to disallow them completely, but rather build in some systemd-aware functionality in the installation-GUI and let it popup a message when the install is almost finished with: "This applications contains a daemon that runs in the background, and request permission to start at boot, do you want to grant that request? Yes/No/More Info".

There is a QA in Harbour, whose job is to check if an app does not do anything undesired or harmful, or even just something that drains power excessively. So there's no reason to disallow autostarting of apps which pass such rigorous QA...

BlackBerry, known from their serious approach to security, allow all kinds of apps working in the background and autostarting, with the only requirement being that they pass their QA, which in case of Headless Apps (as such background processes are called on BB10) is even more rigorous and involves much deeper tests than normal apps. On BB10 an app can not only autostart and work in background all the time, but there are numerous triggers which can launch such a background process automatically when certain things happen, and then automatically stop it. Such Headless apps require the Run In Background permission to be accepted by the user upon installation, and the user can disable it anytime making such process stop and never start again until the permission gets re-enabled.

On the Jolla, where there are no such user configurable permissions, I guess there should be a page in Settings (or somewhere else) listing all registered daemons and letting the user enable or disable each of them in an easy way, with a simple On/Off switch. Additionally, like you wrote, there should be a warning upon installation that an application contains a background functionality and/or can autostart - the same way as on BB10 there is a prompt to accept (or reject) the "Run in Backgroud" permission with an explanation what it means.

Such things are still not handled too well on Sailfish OS. There is no access from the UI to the aforementioned list of daemons (so for an average user there is no way to start/stop them or even just check what's running in the background), and there's even no way to uninstall from the UI an app which does not have an icon.

Let's say that a novice user installs an app like this one:

https://openrepos.net/content/kimmoli/call-flasher

and then he won't be able to easily turn it on or off, or even uninstall as it doesn't have any icon...

Of course, everything can be done from the X-Terminal but it's not something that average users can do. So if Jolla is really so serious about security, they should think about taking care of it soon.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    My-Symbian ~ My-Maemo ~ My-MeeGo Forum Index -> Jolla Sailfish OS All times are GMT + 2 Hours

Go to page
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
View previous topic :: View next topic

Similar Topics on this forum
Topic Author Forum Replies Posted
No new posts Spam from Jolla Michal Jerz Jolla Sailfish OS 6 Wednesday, 28.Jun.2017 03:15 View latest post
No new posts Jolla in 2017 BentL Jolla Sailfish OS 47 Wednesday, 08.Feb.2017 17:43 View latest post
No new posts Jolla secures new financing for Sailfish OS development BentL Jolla Sailfish OS 1 Tuesday, 03.May.2016 11:17 View latest post
No new posts Jolla Adventures Kleuter Jolla Sailfish OS 0 Friday, 13.Nov.2015 19:30 View latest post
No new posts First wave of Jolla tablets arrive, further delay for rest Casanunda Jolla Sailfish OS 13 Friday, 09.Oct.2015 17:23 View latest post
No new posts What is Jolla up to? MeowTseDong Jolla Sailfish OS 5 Friday, 21.Aug.2015 21:48 View latest post
No new posts What are those partnerships of Jolla in fact? Kleuter Jolla Sailfish OS 35 Saturday, 25.Apr.2015 13:55 View latest post
No new posts Sailfish OS 2.0 & Jolla Tablet on MWC Casanunda Jolla Sailfish OS 15 Tuesday, 03.Mar.2015 23:11 View latest post
No new posts The blog from Marc Dillon about the Jolla plans for 2015 spyder81 Jolla Sailfish OS 10 Monday, 26.Jan.2015 15:55 View latest post
No new posts official Jolla batteries in Jolla store Casanunda Jolla Sailfish OS 15 Tuesday, 09.Dec.2014 14:56 View latest post

Posting/discussing/exchanging warez/cracks/serial numbers/links to web sites offering such resources and/or any other illegal content
is FORBIDDEN on this forum and results in an immediate BAN.


Symbian and all Symbian-based marks and logos are trade marks of Symbian Software Limited.
This website is not in any way endorsed or supported by Symbian Software Limited.    (C) 2001 My-Symbian.com All Rights Reserved