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Sony Xperia devices with Sailfish OS

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Ketilk
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PostPosted: Monday, 31.Jul.2017 18:46    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Jolla is not ready to announce which all Xperia X:s existing features will be supported in the end, but regarding 3rd party features already supported by Sailfish OS, Jolla targets to offer both MS Exchange Active Sync and a decent support for running Android apps

If they don't intend a chroot or similar for full android support, I doubt it will be decent. More and more android apps stop being compatible with the original Jolla phone's android layer. I am even now considering to replace my Jolla phone with a cheap android phone, because I want apps that are only made for android/iOS.

Nokia N9 dying, and SailfishOS on my Jolla phone not getting anywhere fast enough made me lose faith in the phone industry, now I just want something that works, and support the applications I want.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 02.Aug.2017 15:09    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Another update on the Sony Xperia project, see blog post:

Quote:
[Update 31/7/2017: First images delivered to Cbeta] Sony Xperia Project Update

Update added to the end of the post

[...]

Update [31/7/2017]

We have been working hard to fulfill our promise of delivering the first images during July, and as the month of July comes to an end, we now have the images ready to be handed over to Cbeta group for the initial verification and testing. Having the software ready for the public depends on the findings during this round of testing done with Cbeta group. This is our first official release that we provide for a device that doesn’t come pre-loaded with Sailfish OS. We have already learned a lot in the process, so bear with us a bit longer.



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naytsyrhc
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PostPosted: Friday, 25.Aug.2017 20:25    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

According to this blog post https://blog.jolla.com/sailfishx/ SFOS for Xperia X is almost ready and can be bought and downloaded by mid october. The image will cost EIR 49,- and will have Android, MS Exchange and predictive text input support. The licence costs for that are included in this 49 EUR fee. Image will receive full support from Jolla and will get updates for one year. See also: https://together.jolla.com/question/166106/official-announcement-intro ducing-sailfish-x/

I must say, that I'm quite excited about that news and hope that Jolla is able to sell some images...
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MeowTseDong
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 30.Aug.2017 22:12    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

One question. Will Sailfish come with Google Play or is it just an Android player like in BB10? If there is some kind of Google services in Sailfish I want the possibility to uninstall them or I will simply not buy Sailfish.

Will it be possible to uninstall the Android player (not possible in BB10).
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PostPosted: Wednesday, 30.Aug.2017 23:33    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I don't know how exactly it will be solved with the image for Xperia X, but I know how it is for "normal" SFOS: you have to manually install android compatibility layer as "app" from Jolla app store. If you don't you can't start any android apps. If you do, you only have a compatibility layer without google services. You can't use any apps relying on any google services.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Thursday, 31.Aug.2017 23:09    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Will Sailfish come with Google Play or is it just an Android player like in BB10?

Google does not permit Google Play or Google Play Services to be used on a device whose HOST operating system isn't Android. That's the reason why neither Google Play nor Google Play Services were present in BB10, and for the very same reason neither of them will ever come to SFOS.

Of course, there are "ports" of both Google Play client and Google Play Services for BB10 made and maintained by a Crackberry forum member, but they're not official and in fact breaking Google's licence terms.

Quote:

Will it be possible to uninstall the Android player (not possible in BB10).

Android Runtime is not included in SFOS by default, it is an optional download from the Jolla store. So you don't need to ever install it if you don't want it. And of course you can uninstall it if you installed it.

The question, however, is what is the use of a SFOS smartphone without Android support if there are almost no native applications. Another question is what's the future of SFOS' Android support if nearly all new Android apps require Google Play Services (which will never come to SFOS) and therefore soon the Android runtime won't be of much use as no new apps will run in it. Old apps won't work for too long, either, because all major service vendors (like Skype, Snapchat, Instagram, banks, etc.) frequently change/upgrade their APIs, login mechanisms, etc., so you need to frequently update their clients to follow the changes, but the new versions require Google Play Services. DEAD END.
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PostPosted: Thursday, 31.Aug.2017 23:47    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
The question, however, is what is the use of a SFOS smartphone without Android support if there are almost no native applications. Another question is what's the future of SFOS' Android support if nearly all new Android apps require Google Play Services (which will never come to SFOS) and therefore soon the Android runtime won't be of much use as no new apps will run in it. Old apps won't work for too long, either, because all major service vendors (like Skype, Snapchat, Instagram, banks, etc.) frequently change/upgrade their APIs, login mechanisms, etc., so you need to frequently update their clients to follow the changes, but the new versions require Google Play Services. DEAD END.


Well, it is a good point and the only answer I have is that I hope it will get better which is not much of a comfort. With Sony, I hope that the interest for SFOS will increase and more free apps will come. The best would be paid apps support but it seems like there is some kind of ideological resistance against that at Jolla.

For people who refuse Android, iOS or WP like me I simply have to look for alternatives. With BB10 out of the way, SFOS is almost the only one left.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Friday, 01.Sep.2017 04:57    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Well, they're just about to start selling their own software (OS) themselves, so having any ideological resistance against selling software would be a sign of mental aberrations...

Anyway, without support for paid apps nothing will ever change, as it is the only serious incentive for developers to come. Thanks to the Nokia store, the ultra-niche Nokia N900 attracted hundreds of developers and got 1700 applications in one year whereas SFOS has maybe some 200 apps (mostly purely hobbyistic) after 4 years. The developer mailing list, initially quite active, very quickly became a place where literally a few people can be seen, so it doesn't look like there are too many people left willing to develop for this platform. I haven't seen anyone new there for ages.

No other company in the whole history of smartphones ever refrained from supporting native 3rd part apps as much as possible. Jolla clearly thinks that they're reinventing the wheel by completely suppressing the creation of native ecosystem, but it must be a square wheel for it clearly doesn't roll.
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PostPosted: Friday, 01.Sep.2017 16:07    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Ideological reasons to not support paid apps?

Goodbye Sailfish, then. It didn't work yet and won't tomorrow either. Why should I buy the new Xperia series and PAY extra to get a system that essentially emulate Android just because the maker decided that commercial apps are "no good" for whatever ideological reason?

We are now reaching EOL for the Android 4.x runtime, 8.0.0 Oreo is already out. I am not even sure that MicroG-GMS Core can be installed on Sailfish (it is the alternate go-to-solution for G-Apps-less Android installations in order to make apps depending on that suite operational).

Even if I would be a "rabiat Google-refuser" I don't think the current state of Sailfish look particularly attractive when I can flash a device with Lineage OS or other ROMs and simply skip the G-Apps in favor of MicroG-GMS Core, APK Mirror and F-Droid. I dare to say that an Android device without G-Apps are easier to maintain app wise than the ancient Jolla compatibility layer (and sideload old apps just because it is SOL when they are targeting 4.4.x or LP etc). Google did transition from Dalvik to ART so the bell is really ringing for any solution based on the former. Android 4.2.2 was the system back in... 2013.

I wouldn't even recommend the stance of "I refuse Android so I am going to stick to Jolla and the 4.2.2 runtime just because Google is a terrible corporation" since it is too emotional and just lack logical thinking.

The top priority of Jolla in 2017 should be:

1. Paid apps, paid apps and paid apps. It is the single most important issue to fix and it doesn't matter what "ideology" they have - a "Free App OS" just won't succeed. Promote native apps in the store (properly).
2. When #1 is in place - start cooperation with some OEMs about "Jolla Editions" (devices with pre-installed Sailfish).
3. The idea of selling SF for selected devices is OK but it should be a clear upgrade path (i.e. not "one year") and things should run properly (i.e. provide free beta versions and start selling the system when the bugs are ironed out).
4. Target Nokia/HMD and make SF images for their devices (especially when the Nokia 9 land so it can become the new N9).

I wouldn't say that "Pay EUR49 for Sailfish, it can run free Android 4.2.2 level apps and it is a beta version similar to early Lineage OS builds" sound enticing and "I am refusing Android" isn't strengthening the case either. It make it sound like the platform is targeting an emotional fanbase. I.e. that the reason to use it isn't its qualities itself but rather "because Google/Android is terrible".

Sailfish is an interesting system BUT Jolla must treat it seriously and get rid of ideologies here (especially the anti-paid apps one).

Supporting an alternate platform is a good idea but should I do it when it is crippled by its maker?

The idea of buying the Oreo based Xperia XZ1 in order to pay additional EUR49 and start running Android 4.2.2 level apps doesn't sound enticing. Perhaps slightly better than buying new batteries to a Nokia 3650, though.Smile

Jolla needs serious strategical improvement and selling a system to those who refuse Android due to ideological standpoints doesn't sound like a good plan.

Sailfish with a proper paid app store and fully operational on specific devices (i.e. not paid beta testing) sounds like a plan. I would be perfectly happy to get it myself under those circumstances but if the arguments for the platform are "Sailfish is good because Android/Google is so terrible!" - count me OUT because it doesn't make any sense. A platform must be able to stand on its own legs rather than "it is good simply because the competition is so bad".

I would also add that most interesting and serious Android apps tend to require newer versions than 4.2.2 (especially community apps from XDA since people there tend to keep their devices updated - I think the amount of 4.2.2 users at the forum is almost non-existent).
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PostPosted: Friday, 01.Sep.2017 16:16    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Michal Jerz wrote:
Well, they're just about to start selling their own software (OS) themselves, so having any ideological resistance against selling software would be a sign of mental aberrations...

Anyway, without support for paid apps nothing will ever change, as it is the only serious incentive for developers to come. Thanks to the Nokia store, the ultra-niche Nokia N900 attracted hundreds of developers and got 1700 applications in one year whereas SFOS has maybe some 200 apps (mostly purely hobbyistic) after 4 years. The developer mailing list, initially quite active, very quickly became a place where literally a few people can be seen, so it doesn't look like there are too many people left willing to develop for this platform. I haven't seen anyone new there for ages.

No other company in the whole history of smartphones ever refrained from supporting native 3rd part apps as much as possible. Jolla clearly thinks that they're reinventing the wheel by completely suppressing the creation of native ecosystem, but it must be a square wheel for it clearly doesn't roll.


It's the Android 4.2.2 wheel. Consider it a service for the Dalvik preservation.Wink

This about preserving Dalvik more than anything else. It is about retro. It can be compared to a brand new steamship with balance engines and gas lighting.

I have a device that can run 4.2.2 but I am not so sure that I am willing to downgrade from 5.1.1 just in order to "simulate" the runtime (I would have to disable the G-Apps for full simulation) in order to see what apps a brand new SF-flashed Xperia XZ1 would run.

Jolla seems to be a very ideological company that are operating on two major thesises:

1. Paid apps are commercial and commercial things are inherently evil.
2. Sailfish are for those who boycott Android out of ideological reasons and share rule 1.

If Sailfish is meant to be an "antidote" against "commercial platforms" rather than a serious player I am afraid that the ideology will kill it off completely. It is evident that it doesn't roll at all.

It is also amusing that they are charging EUR49 for the system but dislike commercial apps - it turns out to be the "Commercial OS without commercial apps" and all of it because of.... ideology.

Edit: It is frustrating to see Jolla mismanage their platform like this. They have an excellent potential Android competitor here but keep it back in a way that seems almost worse than the way Symbian were managed.
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PostPosted: Saturday, 02.Sep.2017 02:04    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

I much rather have a free OS with commercial apps, than a commercial OS without commercial apps.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Saturday, 02.Sep.2017 16:33    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

This company just doesn't want to make any money. They stubbornly refuse to support paid apps, which would be giving them solid 30% of every app sold, purely for nothing. They had that fantastic The Other Half idea which could have resulted in great and totally unique accessories making the Jolla REALLY stand out, but they TOTALLY ignored it and eventually they just dumped it. Just imagine how much more people could have been tempted to buy the Jolla if there were official advanced TOHs for it like solar charging backs, weather stations (temperature, pressure, humidity, radiation, whatever else), Arduino TOH, large keyboard, direct OBD2 interface for car diagnostics, Geiger counter, TOHs with various additional camera lenses and/or filters (e.g. for 1:1 macro photography).... the list could go on for hours. Not only as separate accessories, but they could have offered them already bundled with the phone instead of the plain plastic cover in a few different colors whose only functionality was to change the ambiance. But no, they only made a pitiful Angry Birds cover and that was the last time you heard about TOH from them.

Now they expect that people will buy an Android 8-capable phone, buy SFOS from them, and replace Android 8 with SFOS in order to run Android 4 apps due to no native apps. I can't imagine anything else half as stupid as that.
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PostPosted: Saturday, 02.Sep.2017 21:15    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Are we seeing a Series 90/Nokia Modus Operandi repeat here?

I think the TOH technology is a perfect way of making a device such as a new Communicator - the UI mode could be switched automatically just by attaching the keyboard cover for example. The way they treated this seems very much like Nokia and Series 90... Here we have an excellent solution for modularity and they just kill it off without using it properly.

Did all bad managers of Nokia (i.e. the serial platform killers) end up with Jolla?

The whole idea of buying an Android 8 Oreo device in order to put an Android 4.2.2 compatible Sailfish OS on it is so amusing that I actually start laughing by thinking of it. I guess there are some "I refuse Google!" people out there who buy everything out of ideological reasons but it make no sense in this case.

I think I rather hope that either a Russian company (Yandex for example) or Chinese one buy Jolla since it feels like the system needs a more serious owner and I am afraid Western ownership can be as bas as the current situation (it needs a backing from forces considering US dominance to be an issue).

Their latest move with their EUR49 beta version with "one year of updates" is like a comedy and I actually realize that I laugh more when I think about Android 4.2.2 apps due to an ideological resistance against paid apps than when watching some shows.Wink

I think it is as dumb as trying to part CM10.1 or so to new 2017 devices.
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MeowTseDong
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PostPosted: Saturday, 09.Sep.2017 00:30    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

It's September and still nothing about when Jolla will be available for download. Releasing something to beta testers isn't much of a release.
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Michal Jerz
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PostPosted: Tuesday, 12.Sep.2017 18:38    Post subject:   Reply with quote   

Quote:

Did all bad managers of Nokia (i.e. the serial platform killers) end up with Jolla?

Quite possibly so. And if some smarter ones happened to be there too, they quickly got rid of them, of which Marc Dillon's case is a good example. He must have had enough of their stupid decisions if he just left.
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